Hondata

Hey everyone. I'm pretty new to Hondata, Turbo charged engines and engine tuning in general. Currently have Integra Type S (DE5) with 93 octane base map flashed. I'm getting some kind of delayed response it seems. I'd describe it as some acceleration once I go WOT, then maybe 500ms later, a much larger sudden surge of power comes in. This happens very similarly and predictably at 3000rpm or even around 4000rpm.

With stock map from Acura, there's some turbo lag below somewhere around 3000rpm and then a noticeable surge that usually ends in wheel spin in 1st and 2nd gear, but then beyond 3500-4000rpm there's no lag and throttle response is near perfect. Both situations would be in Sport+. When this lag is present, it feels pretty slow compared to default map at the same RPM.

Has anyone experienced this in FL5/DE5? Is this just an issue with the combination of mods I have and I need a more specific tune for them or should I be chasing after a boost leak somewhere? I didn't have this issue before the flash on the same mods. Though maybe I'd say that Intercooler being last addition

List of mods in order of installation with minimum a week in between:
- PRL HVI Intake (minimal to no noticeable gains)
- HPS charge pipes (felt some gains in the mid/upper range, but very slightly felt a bit of lag at times, thought I was crazy)
- PRL intercooler (felt some more gains and have a tad more feeling of that slight lag at times, but nothing that really bothers me or affects driveability)
- Hondata 93 octane base map (very noticeable gains but also very noticeable boost lag when I go WOT)

I'm digging more into the datalog as I write this post and have included two graphs of two different instances of acceleration in 3rd gear from a single drive today. Seems like boost reaching ~20psi from 3500rpm took ~700ms and boost from 3800rpm took ~400ms. This sounds theoretically normal for turbo lag in general. I'm wondering why the waste gate in the 700ms boost build up never actually closed and went from 0.8mm to 0.6mm before opening again while the one that took 400ms waste gate started at 0.17mm and was closed completely before it opened again. Is this normal behavior or is this reading within the margin of error and it's actually closed when it says it's open a bit? WG CMD was at 0% when it was open 0.8mm. Boost get to about 25PSI around 5000rpm.

Apologies if the graphs are hard to read. Please right click and open in new window. Also, I couldn't figure out how to get BP and BP CMD to a more reasonable scale instead of 300.

If none of this looks suspicious, I think my next step is to flash back to stock to datalog that and see how it feels.

can you attach the actual logfiles and the calibration?

Attached two data logs from this morning. What I noticed testing them back to back:

- stock tune had very good throttle response at any RPM, very direct
- 93 base map there was a noticeable need to press the pedal more and even then, it was just slow to react. Once at higher RPM, I went from no throttle to fully depressed and noticed maybe 200ms delay with almost no accel. then sudden accel.
- stock tune the boost comes on earlier, around 2500rpm and then builds up until 3500rpm
- 93 base map boost seems to come on past 3500rpm and builds till just past 4000rpm when it's much more accel. than stock. But below 3500rpm, it just feels sluggish compared to stock

I didn't see waste gate being as open today in the datalog compared to my original post screenshot. Datalog matching screenshots is attached too as 'datalog0001'.

It looks like a bosst leak for me.

it's weird that there appears to be a leak but the WG holds open at around 2mm or more.

I was going to point to the same thing but I'm pretty new to this and really not sure what does and doesn't make sense. Looking at the stock tune datalog where I tested back to back, BP CMD is only maxing out at 18psi and BP is matching that without issues while the waste gate has a similar graph shape as in 93 base map.

What would be really helpful is if someone could post a datalog of their FL5/DE5 with 93 base map and stock tune. I know there are lots of variables, but maybe I'd be able to see if I'm the only one with this pattern in the readings.

Reading FK8 tuning wiki, I think there was mention that torque targets don't affect BP CMD. So I'm wondering if the ECU is opening the waste gate to limit torque or something. I certainly hope I haven't been driving with a boost leak around town.

I've been testing out a OTS base map from JesterTuned meant for track usage for a few days and I do get the same behavior but like the stock tune, boost comes on earlier and thus I guess throttle response improves which is making it a much more fun and predictable driving experience. I think it has different torque targets than Hondata 93 base map. WIth Hondata 93 base map, I definitely few wheel spin issues around 3000rpm compared to stock but responsiveness has not been my favorite part and I've always been nervous about throttle input in turns as the power comes on delayed and very suddenly around 4000rpm.

I'll do a quick leak test in the morning just in case. Should be relatively easy to check HPS charge pipes since connections are easy to access (no torque specs where provided in their install doc so chance of leak here is possible). Probably harder to check intercooler connection (I did install o-rings and torque to spec).

actually, just re-reading it. Torque target results in calculated air charge, which then is converted to BP CMD. Torque limit doesn't affect BP CMD, but I recall it's just left at max and is not really used in the hondata tune while stock tune has it around 450Nm for most of the rev range.

There's text in there that said tuning this ECU is more about tuning air charge. In Hondata 93 base map, air charge limit is 230 (stock is 300). Seems that we've already hit just above 230 and it was bringing it down using the waste gate? Looks to me like as soon as we hit 230 AIRC, waste gate opens to compensate, but because of a delay, AIRC rises higher for a moment, then comes back down, and so waste gate is also closed a bit. This happens one more time in smaller modulation to get stable AIRC of 230.

Just my interpretation of what it looks like. Though reading the FK8 guide, it says "The ECU will calculate how much air charge is required to achieve the requested torque, up to the limits defined in various tables. The air charge will determine boost pressure command, and then from that the throttle plate position and wastegate position."

This is what doesn't seem to match the datalog. I think based on my research, AIRC logged is calculated based on other sensor readings and the actual algorithm is not known. But I'm thinking there must be a difference between "air charge required to hit torque targets" versus "current air charge" and the AIRC must be "current air charge" in order for the ECU to modulate waste gate to target a specific % (hondata's wording on this sensor is also that it's the current reading as an estimate). So if that's true, does it then mean that there can be a difference between "air charge required" vs "current air charge", which theoretically translates to a case where BP never reach BP CMD?

In other words, ECU thinks we need 26psi to get air charge of 230%, so BP CMD is set to 26psi, but in the current conditions, actual air charge reached 230% with BP of 24psi, so then the ECU opens the waste gate to keep air charge at 230%

This doesn't correspond with the warning in the FK8 tuning wiki saying that if BP consistently is 2psi or more below BP CMD, then there's a boost leak which would be bad.

Am I making any sense right now or am I barking up the wrong tree here?

Okay, Rares was right. It was a boost leak.

I received my boost leak test kit yesterday and just sorted out my charge pipes after finding a leak. Low RPM responsiveness is much improved!

Thanks all!

I'm glad you found the problem. All the best!