New to FP and seeing a lot of knock during 3rd geat WOT

[m.sumulong]

Hey guys, just got my FP 2 nights ago, so I'm brand new to this. I loaded the stock tuned basemap and datalogged my trip home from work tonight. Looks like I got an insane amount of knock during my 3rd gear WOT. Is this because I'm running 91 right now? I'm in Canada and right now 93 is almost $2/L. If it saves me from this knock, I'll gladly spend the few cents/L increase. My log is also too big to attach, so I'll have to send it to whoever is interested by some other means.

Please help!

2006 Civic Si, K&N SRI, nothing else, 91 octane

[EFICU]

It’s most likely just a simple issue of a little too much timing. Most of the basemaps are tuned for 93 I believe. I can help you with it if you’d like. How long do you plan to run this setup, do you have any future mods planned soon?

Also, I don’t see a datalog attached. If you can try to attach it again we can take a look at it.

[m.sumulong]

Not going to lie, I've been watching these forms since I bought the FP and was hoping you'd help me out, lol.

My datalog is too big to attach, is there a way to get it to you another way? Or should I just run another one? I don't really want to do another pull with the knocks going on.

This setup is going to be it for a bit. I'm going to be spending on suspension and wheels / tires before I upgrade my bolt ons.

[EFICU]

Haha, no problem. I enjoy helping you guys out, especially when you guys have genuine concerns and fears.

No don’t do another pull. Are you comfortable with opening datalogs in FlashPro Manager? If so, open the datalog and you’ll see the timeline showing the length of the datalog. If you right click before the WOT, then click “set new start” that will trim everything before that point. Then resave it with a new title stating trimmed or something so you know which one is which, and post it on here.

If you’re not comfortable with that or have trouble with it, we can try a different route.

[m.sumulong]

Thanks! I was wondering how to crop these files into sections. I'm still getting used to the Manager, there's so much to learn about it. But I'm sure I'll get the hang of it eventually. Here is the drive split in half. The pull is on the second file.

[EFICU]

Glad it worked out. Yeah it looks like a simple case of too much timing, especially near redline. There is probably 4-6* more timing than I run for guys where the knock is happening on your car. Most likely that is the cause of your knock, which is a simple fix.

Are you wanting to continue adjusting the basemap you're on, or do you want me to transfer you to my stuff to start?

If we go with my stuff, there is two ways of tuning these, a long and a short way. Since you have been reading some of my posts you may have read this already. The long way we tune each cam angle, then blend everything out to make a proper cam angle map based on fuel data. This usually take 10-12 revisions to get it dialed. The shorter way we do a hybrid of the longer route, we just try to gather data quicker through less revisions. The shorter way can range between 6-8, depending on how things go.

So let me know which route sounds best for you and we'll go from there.

[m.sumulong]

You're right, I've read up on a lot of the work you've done with other guys, and it seems to work out great for them. I'd definitely like to go with your stuff and I don't mind going the long way. I should be able to send logs pretty regularly.

Will we have to start all over when I do get an exhaust/header/new intake? Like I mentioned, this would all be later down the road, at least a few months away. I'd just hate to throw out all your work now and start over again once I get new parts put on, or will we just be making smallish adjustments at that point?

I really appreciate your help man.

[EFICU]

Yeah for the most part it all works out well. You can't make everyone happy unfortunately, especially without a dyno. There is only so much we can do without a dyno as far as power. The main thing is getting it safe to the point you can have fun with it, but I try to get as much power as we can safely.

Yes and no on having to start all over, doing it the long way here does have some relevance to a the tune for bolt ons, as far as WOT fueling anyways. This calibration will be a hybrid calibration where you run on the MAF sensor for part throttle, then speed density on the MAP sensor for WOT. I have found that is a good combo with stock intakes, or intakes like the K&N that has a very similar MAF location to OEM. Do you know which intake you plan to get in the future? If you go with a big tube intake like the Hybrid Racing or Skunk 2, those will make the biggest change to the tune. But it's an easy process to redo the tune at that point. Again though, we can loosely use the data from this tune for that, so it's not a waste.

I've been able to streamline the process honestly to where the long way isn't too bad anymore. I used to have you guys run through 10 revisions just to get the data to get started, I've now been able to cut that down to 5-6, then the following revisions are refining the tune. Having closer basemaps now helps too, being in the ballpark from the start makes things easier for everyone because sadly the burden of time falls on you guys and all the driving. Granted it's fun, but I don't want to have you guys out beating on your cars over and over.

So here is the first one for you. This one will be the 0* cam angle with vtec at 4500. As I'm sure you know, the datalog need to be 20-30 minutes with one third gear WOT pull from 2500-8600. The 0* cam is a little sluggish, so don't stress on it too much, it's just part of the process.

m.sumulong.Hybrid.Rev01 (0Cam)(Vtec4500).fpcal

[m.sumulong]

Wow! I tried to keep a realistic expectation on the first go but that was already a huge improvement. The knocks are all gone and there was already an increase in power. Plus the gear changes, especially the lower ones, are so much smoother. Makes me wonder what's next if you say this is sluggish lol.

I do plan to get a HR SRI. If it also helps with the direction of the tunes, I also plan to get a Q300 and an Invidia header.

It's not really difficult for me to get these drives in, plus they are fun. I get off work so early in the morning that the streets and highway are clear enough to do a WOT run without issues. So if you need other specific driving parameters, I'm sure I can find a stretch to pull it off. I work 4 on/4 off so that will probably be the pattern of my logs. Speaking of which, here is my run from this morning

[EFICU]

Awesome, glad to you hear you're happy so far. It will for sure get better as we go. Yeah knock is almost always from too much timing, or at least part of the equation for sure. So I wasn't too concerned when I saw your original post and datalog that followed.

Sounds like a good setup. So you're going to modify the HR to make it an SRI? If so, K-Tuned makes a 3.5" SRI that's all ready to go. That might be an option unless there is something about the HR which you like or want, which is totally fine. But yeah, your setup will run pretty well for sure.

Overall the datalog looked good. The part throttle fueling was pretty much dead on so that is a great start, along with no knock as you mention. I did notice one thing in the datalog which made me go back and look at your original datalog, and it looks like the primary o2 sensor appears to be failing or has failed for WOT fueling. I have seen it now fairly often, and the way your AFR under WOT is almost dead flat leads me to believe the sensor has failed. I went ahead and made the fuel adjustments to get the fueling inline so we can make another datalog to verify. If the AFR stays the same for WOT, we will need to replace the primary o2 sensor before we can move forward. So take this next one for a spin when you can and we will see how it looks. We really only need a third gear WOT pull, you don't need to take it out for 20-30 minutes, just a quick WOT pull will tell us.

Sorry to give you bad news...

m.sumulong.Hybrid.Rev02 (0Cam)(Vtec4500)(O2Test).fpcal

[m.sumulong]

Here's my latest pull. Hope it's good enough, I had to do it during the afternoon because we had a dump of snow last night so I couldn't do it right after work. With more cars on the road, I was only able to get to about 8000 rpm, but I do see the dip on the AFR throughout the pull.

I already ordered an upstream O2 sensor as soon as you told me about it, should be able to get it in my car this weekend. Guessing we'll put a hold on make more adjustments until the new one is in?

Not sure why I was thinking HR, I guess because I got a bunch of things from them lately, but I meant K-Tuned SRI. From what you've seen, how big of a difference would a 3.5" pipe be compared to a 3"?

[EFICU]

Man you're on the ball, and have too much faith in me. Haha. But yeah, the AFR reading is still way off and not reading properly. Go ahead and put Rev01 back in for now until you get the sensor in. Or you can run Rev02, just don't do any WOT pulls until you get the new sensor in. I know it's close in Rev01, but I don't know how close. So to be safe, stay away from aggressive driving until you get the new sensor in. Once you get the new sensor in, take Rev01 for another datalog with the third gear WOT pull so we can see where we're at.

Gotcha, yeah the K-Tuned intake is a nice piece. If you were going for all out power the 3.5" would be better, but the chances of us taking advantage of that extra air may not be likely. If you haven't order one yet, I would recommend the 3.5" just because it won't hurt and allows you to get everything you can from whatever setup you have in the future. Then I tell guys if you like tinkering with the car, build some type of heat shield around the filter to block as much hot air as possible. In the warm months, the intake temps go up and keeping them as cool as possible is ideal. Either way though, the 3" or 3.5" SRI variant from K-Tuned will work great.

So yeah, I would throw Rev01 back in and drive that for the remainder of the week until you get the o2 sensor in. Then once it's in, make a datalog and we'll go from there. Unfortunately there isn't much data to be learned without making WOT pulls, so we'll just pause for now and then resume when the sensor goes in. At least we caught the sensor now, so it's good moving forward to have a fresh sensor in there. Which brand sensor did you purchase?

[m.sumulong]

Man, I dont have a clue about tuning so I'm going to take in all the advice you can give me.

I got a Denso from rockauto. I had a feeling the O2 sensor was a bit off, a buddy of mine mentioned it as well but it never threw a code so I let it go. But it was on my "to-do" list as the mileage on the car is higher and I have no idea when it was changed or if ever.

I haven't ordered the intake yet. Got Christmas shopping and some birthdays to take care off first lol. But if there's not too much difference between the two initially, I'll get the 3.5" to open up possibilities down the road.

Timing actually works out right now. I'm off work for the next few days so the car will be parked for a bit. I'll send you another log on rev1 once the sensor is in.

[EFICU]

Haha, sounds good. I've seen the faulty sensor enough now to know it when I see it. On the first datalog from the old calibration I was looking at the overall picture. In the first datalog from my calibration, I was dialed in on all the details and saw the infamous overly flat AFR line which is the sign of the faulty sensor. The AFR line always has some chatter to it, when it's super flat that generally means the sensor is faulty. Now I've added the recommended fuel, and the AFR didn't come into spec. When you add 6% fuel, it should change the AFR substantially, with the bad sensor it didn't move much at all.

Yeah I've only seen a couple that actually showed the fault code for it. And come to think of it, those were other issues. This specific issue I haven't seen a code for it. It's not out of range, it's only reading lean by maybe 4-5%, so it won't throw a code. Also, it doesn't mean the AFR is lean either, when tuned properly, the ECU delivers fuel based on the fuel tables we tune and doesn't not trim fuel like part throttle. So the sensor is reading wrong, but the ECU isn't using that data to provide fuel, that's all hard data in the tune.

Damn Christmas and b-days, haha. Yeah if you haven't ordered one yet I would just go big with it that way you can get everything possible in the future. Granted a 3" isn't a bottleneck by any means, but the 3.5" has been shown to be a proven winner.

Gotcha, well if you need to take it out either Rev01 or 02 is fine for part throttle, I just wouldn't recommend any WOT since we don't know the AFR. Sounds good, just give me a heads up when the sensor goes in and I'll keep an eye out for the subsequent datalog.

[m.sumulong]

Hey, just a heads up. I got the sensor in today. If all goes well, I'll be able to put it in tonight and have a log for you in the morning.