Hondata

I've been contacted by 2 different clients today about an issue they are having consistently with any calibraition, and both of their symptoms and datalogs are the same. Once the RPMs reach about 8K, the throttle plate drops to 9% and the car dies.

Datalogs from both cars attached.

I don't know which version of FPM they are using, but I have requested that info from them.

I heard back from 1 of them that they are using 1.5.6.0

The other was using 1.4.6.0

The guy that was running 1.4.6.0 just now reported that he updated to the non-beta version 1.5.6.0, but it did not fix the problem.

Here is another datalog and calibration from the test done after updating to 1.5.6.0.

Do either of these have aftermarket or overbored throttle bodies?

Spunkster wrote:Do either of these have aftermarket or overbored throttle bodies?

That was my first question to the first person that emailed me, and he said that he does have an SOS bored OEM TB. I wouldn't be surprised if the other owner also has an oversized TB, since it's a dedicated BSP car. However, once I saw the datalogs from both with virtually identical symptoms on the same day, I thought for sure there had to be some sort of software link. I couldn't think of any way that a bored TB would cause the Tplate to CLOSE unexpectedly at 8K RPMs while the TPedal is all the way to the floor.

Gernby wrote:

Spunkster wrote:Do either of these have aftermarket or overbored throttle bodies?

That was my first question to the first person that emailed me, and he said that he does have an SOS bored OEM TB. I wouldn't be surprised if the other owner also has an oversized TB, since it's a dedicated BSP car. However, once I saw the datalogs from both with virtually identical symptoms on the same day, I thought for sure there had to be some sort of software link. I couldn't think of any way that a bored TB would cause the Tplate to CLOSE unexpectedly at 8K RPMs while the TPedal is all the way to the floor.

Im one of the guys having issues. I have 2 TBs ... an OEM and the SOS bored TB (currently installed). Looking back over my logs, both were having the same issues, but for me, it was around 7.5k. This first happened on the dyno for my first tune, so I switched back to the OEM TB and sent the TB back to SOS. (later they checked it out and returned it stating it was fine.) This seemed to work on the dyno to get a tune, but happened immediately on our runs that weekend at Spring Nationals (SCCA-Lincoln, NE) where the car started cutting out on course. My mods are simple, CT Intake, PLM header, Berk TP, Single exhaust, SOS TB, Flash Pro (originally tuned by Dynosty - now working with Gernby). I have gone to great lengths to get this car running right ... replaced every sensor on the motor, checked compression, leak down, valve adj, check grounds, had 2 Honda techs look it over with the dealer tools on weekends, etc. Im missing out on lots of events and sponsorship payouts so any help is appreciated.

-Marc

We do not modify any of the throttle control software, and I believe that the error is being generated by the throttle control module (separate module from the ECU under the dash).

The error is from the throttle control module looking at the target vs actual throttle plate position. Many things could cause this - a physical stop on the throttle, a misalignment of the TPS sensors - any number of things if the throttle has been modified. I note that one instance of this error in the past was caused by low voltage supply to the throttle relay. Also be aware that the throttle body motors are not terribly robust and are known to fail, but if you are using a modified throttle body then it would logical that it is the cause of the problem.

Hondata wrote:We do not modify any of the throttle control software, and I believe that the error is being generated by the throttle control module (separate module from the ECU under the dash).

The error is from the throttle control module looking at the target vs actual throttle plate position. Many things could cause this - a physical stop on the throttle, a misalignment of the TPS sensors - any number of things if the throttle has been modified. I note that one instance of this error in the past was caused by low voltage supply to the throttle relay. Also be aware that the throttle body motors are not terribly robust and are known to fail, but if you are using a modified throttle body then it would logical that it is the cause of the problem.

I used this response and forwarded it to Science of Speed who built the throttle body and checked my logs. I asked the if they were sure the throttle body was properly working. Their response ... "Yes, we tested this in house on a factory 2006, and it performed properly. I am positive the issue is not with the throttle body."

I swapped out the throttle control module and took the car for a spin after going through the throttle learn procedure only to have the same results. As of now, there are two cars, tuned and built much differently, properly working before in using older software with a few less mods... having the same issues. These modifications have all been tested and verified to be properly working by professionals/manufacturers/Honda techs/etc. All are in agreement that something has to be wrong with the Hondata or tune at this point. There are no other options that haven't been investigated.

-Marc

We've been through this before with the Civic Si.

Can you provide a summary of the vehicle & settings as per the posting guidelines?

The best way to diagnose these problems is be substitution. You can either substitute known good parts into a car with a problem, or swap parts from the car with the problem into a known good vehicle. Sometimes a combination of parts may not generate an error individually, but will do so together. eg if the current supply from two different controller modules is 20A and 22A, within stock tolerances, and two throttle bodies require 12A and 21A to maintain the throttle position accurately, you can see that it is possible to change one part and incorrectly diagnose the problem.

The other thing that will help is to remap the throttle map to a 1:1 relationship between the plate and pedal, so that any differences show up. In one datalog I notice that the throttle plate was about 15 degrees higher than the pedal, but there is no way of knowing what the calibration table was like at that point.

I got an email from the other person having this issue, and he made some interesting points.

I will remap throttle table to 1:1 tomorrow and see if anything changes and repost to hondata forum.
I am on a stock throttle body and modified oem intake manifold. Havent figured anything out yet.

Time out.... Can the the DBW throttle body get too hot??? Both me and mark do not run coolant through our dbw throttle bodies because we were deleting emission devices. but what if that wasnt for emissions? what if the control unit would overheat past coolant temperature?

FWIW, my TB does have the stock hoses/coolant going through it...

edit...

Every sensor on my engine has been replaced with new oem. The ignitors and fuel injectors were swapped with another car. Various maps have been used. All known grounds have been checked and improved contact points. I wonder if the modified manifold causes issues with the tune? Mine is basically a modified OEM with a bigger plenum, bowl work, and tightened runners.

-Marc

if marc is running coolant, then i am scratching that theory.
So. the events that need to happen for the failure
It seems as if the throttle body gets lazy, The throttle needs to be at wide open for a certain period of time for the event to occur.
It is possible for the event to happen in 2nd, however it happens for a short period of time prior to redline, too short for the ecu to decide something is wrong and shut off.
The returning value from the throttle control module is correct, the throttle is slowly closing on itself even though the ecu is asking the control module to keep it open.
So the next question i have, can the throttle control module be sending the wrong instructions to the throttlebody, or is the throttlebody not responding properly to the instructions.
The fault i know is not the throttlebody, three throttlebodies responded the same way.
If the throttlebody is in fact getting the correct signal, then it is not getting enough power to its motor to do its job. So my question is,
Where does the throttlebody gets its power, and which pin does it come in on?
Also any thoughts?

Are you guys still having issues with this?

I don't know if it's related, but I experienced some sort of issue that I believe was DBW related at an autocross last week. We had 8 runs, and 7 of those runs my car acted like I lifted throttle in the middle of a slolam. I thought it was fuel starvation at first, so I put more gas in my tank before my afternoon runs. However, even with 1/2 tank, it did exactly the same thing at the same place. My foot was 100% on the pedal every time it happened.

Unfortunately, I didn't have my FlashPro with me, so I couldn't datalog it. :(