Hondata

Hey! Thanks for the detailed explanation! Helps me learn a lot about the process and what everything means. I really appreciate that!

Reading over your first paragraph, would it help if I cleaned/replaced the MAF sensor by any chance? I was also thinking, is there anyway to use any of the data in the logs to determine if any parts need to be replaced or inspected? Just curious, thanks for your insight!

I really appreciate your attention to detail and really wanting to dial things in. As well as your time put into all these revisions! I really appreciate it and am definitely going to pay you as this has been a HUGE help. I'd be glad to send you some goodies from Hawaii as well if that interests you :)

Thanks for explaining about the dangerous knock. That 60-62 mph 6th gear is very normal on my commutes as I set it on cruise control on the highways. I like that you do things car by car and that you care about the cars you tune. I really appreciate that!

Here's a couple logs I did this morning driving as I do most of the time on a normal basis. How's things looking now? The car felt good. Sounded less aggressive but drove smoother during normal driving in the stop and go type traffic. I did go into VTEC a few times but I really just drove it as I normally would and didn't do anything out of the ordinary.

Normal Drive 1 - https://computerhale-my.sharepoint.com/ ... A?e=0GuQr3

Normal drive 2 - https://computerhale-my.sharepoint.com/ ... A?e=BZEPcT

Last question - Do you have any recommendations on books, courses, videos to learn more about understanding all the data from the logs? I love being able to datalog the car and wish I understood what I was looking at lol. Thanks!!

No problem, I didn't think you would want the short answer. And I tell everyone to take everything I say with a grain of salt and please do that on your future research too. I see a lot of bad information thrown around on other forums, so I am nervous to see people take some of that advice to heart. So please research and verify, as I would imagine you would being in IT. For learning, you can try High Performance Academy out of New Zealand, or Evans Performance Academy here in the states. The big thing with this stuff is getting the settings right to control the target AFR and get the ECU to do what you want, etc, then the fuel and ignition stuff is insanely easy thanks to how Hondata designed the software and datalogging capabilities of the FlashPro. I remember the days before I was tuning, I remember the helpless feeling when looking at the numbers. Now I look back on that and laugh at what I thought was so daunting, and now I look at it so easily. You will laugh when you figure it out, you're in IT, you know what I mean and remember your learning of software and coding. We can always discuss more in email if you want to learn, I just have to keep the calibrations on this forum per Hondata's rules. You have my email in your calibration files, if you want to discuss the software more and how to set things up let me know.

No I don't think cleaning the MAF will help any. I don't see anything weird coming from the MAF, I just wanted to change the engine control strategy from MAF based to MAP based (speed density) to work on the knock. I am helping a few guys outside the forum who are having a similar issue, so I am sort of getting data from all you guys and trying to find the culprit. The more of these you do, the more patterns you see. When you don't see a pattern, it can get a little frustrating, at least for me. Since my work is on display here all the time, I try to keep the best product I can on here for you and when things don't go right I tend to self reflect hard on myself. Based on your datalogs though, I might have found a possible solution for a few people now.

Yeah no problem, I enjoy working with you guys. Some guys as I mention you just can't please, but I have been lucky to say I've worked with some really great people and it's all been 99% positive. Generally that one percent is the people you knew you shouldn't try to help from the beginning, but your desire to help people pushes you to. But yeah, most the guys I get to work with we end up talking about life and all that throughout the process. Also why I don't ask for money for help, if things don't work out to where we're both happy everyone is free to part ways. If you're happy at the end and want to send me a thank you, it's much appreciated. But I don't allow the money to dictate the level of help, or fog the amicable separation process because money is a key factor for people getting their feelings hurt.

I want you guys to drive the car how you want, so I don't tell people to change their driving styles. So if you like to cruise at 62mph in 6th gear, then we need to build the tune for that. I could tell you to drive in 5th gear at that speed to reduce the knock, but I don't feel that's right. Some guys I mention the use of a lower gear for acceleration is a good idea when you need to accelerate quickly. I see some datalogs where guys are going WOT in 6th gear at 45mph and you can sort of feel their frustration as to why they aren't moving. We have to keep these k series wound up to get them moving if more acceleration is need because the torque is so low. But in your case, you like to drive that specific speed and gear, so I want to make it work for that. Which is why I didn't like all the knock we were showing before in that range.

So the datalogs, one looked great and the other one looked even better. Haha. We had a few knock in the first one, and one in the second one. The best part is we had zero knock in that 60-62mph range like we had a lot before. And this calibration was with all the ignition put back in like we were starting from scratch. So I think we're on the right track for sure. And all the fueling was really great, I am surprised how close the part throttle fueling is. I am so curious as to why your parts package demands the fuel that it does, it's very interesting. I was expecting it to be a little rich at part throttle, but it was really good. Your part throttle fuel demand is like you have a big tube intake. I'm curious if it's the intake hose or what that is helping so much.

Anyways, so I made some small adjustments for the knock we showed. For this next one, keep doing your testing and keep trying to hit that route for 60-65 mph in 6th so we can keep an eye on it. And also, the WOT fueling looked great in the last WOT datalog we had a few days ago, but shoot for at least one WOT pull in third gear just so I can verify that is dialed. The fact that the knock is way down, and you like the driving feel, it doesn't get any better than that. You make me wonder if I should tune them speed density, then provide them a hybrid calibration and see which one they like most. We will definitely stick to the speed density strategy then moving forward, the datalogs both looked great and you liked the feel.

Love learning about it all. I do as much research as I have time for but as you know, takes time to properly learn and understand what I am learning. Thanks for those recommendations on learning. With how confused I am at looking at it now, I can't wait to even have a basic understanding lol. I'll for sure be shooting you over an email. Thanks!

Glad to hear I'm not the only one experiencing the issue and stoked to hear of a possible solution! I cannot wait until the final product haha. I'll definitely be sending you a big thank you!

Regarding driving styles, I do appreciate any feedback and suggestions and don't ever take offense. I don't know much about cars so if you have any suggestions, I would love to hear it. In 5th gear at that speed I believe the cars RPMs are around 3500 or so. I don't care for fuel economy really (although gas is pricey here lol) and I always wondered if that is bad for the engine to be around that RPMs? I am curious to hear your thoughts on this and I have no problem leaving it in 5th at that speed if its not bad for the motor.

That's great to hear about the datalogs and things are looing great! That's interesting to hear about my parts on my car and how it affects the car. I know that intake hose is larger than stock for more airflow but didn't expect much from it. But sounds like it works as advertised haha. When choosing the parts for my build I wanted to keep the major components of the car stock. Mainly the intake system and the main components of the exhaust. That's why I went with just the shorty header, high flow filter, and the intake tube. Interesting information though and another reason I can't wait to know how to understand the data!

I'll load this one up and send over the datalogs later today and make sure to do one WOT pull. If you want I can test out the different calibrations and let you know how it feels. The one thing I did miss vs the other tunes was the aggressive sound of the motor at almost the entire rpm range but right now it get's that sound soon as it's in VTEC which is nice. Anyway, I'll take it for a spin and report the results back here.

Thanks again for all the help and information and I'll be shooting you an email as well. Aloha!

Here's the datalog for that last revision. How's that one look?

https://computerhale-my.sharepoint.com/ ... w?e=FzlphR

Thanks!

Yeah the main thing is not psyching yourself out and getting discouraged. Since you're in IT, you probably are less likely to be daunted by so many tables and all that stuff. There is a lot in the calibration you don't need to worry about too, so that helps to know what does and does not need to be addressed. When you first get started you're looking at all the tabs and your eyes begin to cross. For simple setups, not much of the background stuff really needs to be changed, as Honda spent so much time with their calibration and Hondata transfers that stuff over for us. But there are a few things such as WOT pressure, vtec pressures, etc. Once you get comfortable looking at the fuel adjustments and stuff, your confidence comes on pretty quick. The fear of the unknown tends to cripple people on this stuff.

I sent one of other guys with the same issue a MAP calibration, so I am anxious to see what he says. Fingers crossed, and cautiously optimistic.

There isn't really too much you can do to these engines to hurt them, again like irresponsible tuning, is irresponsible driving can do that. But driving in 5th gear at 60 mph is not an issue at all. When I had my 8th gen, I would cap city driving to a max of 5th gear, and when I would do 5th gear it was light throttle when I knew I would be holding that speed for some time on a stretch of road. If the speed wouldn't go over 45 let's say, I would usually cap it in 4th. And then if you need to do some light acceleration it's no problem, moderate acceleration for some reason I would drop it down a gear or two. At 60-65 you're in that area where 6th gear becomes usable IMO for highway cruising like you're doing. Think of gears 1-4 as your normal gears, then 5-6 are considered overdrive. Your 4th gear is a 1:1 ratio, then 5th is an overdrive gear and then 6th has even more overdrive for cruising on the highway for fuel economy.

One nice thing about keeping them wound up in the city, say like maxing in 4th gear when under 50mph, you have enough power to get out of the way if something happens. If you're cruising through town at 40mph in 5th gear, then all the sudden you need to accelerate to avoid a car or something, you won't have enough power to do so or time to downshift. It's all really personal preference and once we get the tune dialed, you can play with it to see what I mean. Or even now, roll around at 45mph in 5th and see how it accelerates, then try it in 4th so you can see what you need to do. Sadly I've never been to your neck of the woods, so I don't know exactly what the roads are like there as far as flat roads or hilly, so it's hard to say. Is the intake sound a lot louder with the Mishimoto hose? As I mentioned before, for guys with CAI or SRIs, I just tell them if you can hear the intake sound really sucking in air and the car isn't accelerating, then the engine is lugging. When it's lugging, you're not going anywhere and you're exposing the engine to potential knock. Think of your ignition as an XY graph, RPM being the horizontal axis and your pedal movement being the vertical axis. When the RPM is lower, and you give it more pedal movement trying to accelerate, the load goes to the upper right hand side of the graph which is where knock is most likely. When you have time, look at the ignition tables, you'll notice really low values in the upper right portions, then they taper. Then next time you datalog, if you have your laptop open in the car, play with the load in different gears and you will sort of see how load works and how higher gears with heavy acceleration or more prone to knock.

Yeah your parts package is like nothing I have worked with before. I don't remember anyone having a shorty header or the Mishimoto tube, definitely not together. Not sure if you like to nerd out with tools or not, but back in the day guys would go in and smooth out the stock air box to get rid of all the inner structure material to smooth out the airflow. Not sure how much it ever helped, but some guys swore by it years and years ago. If you do like nerding out with a Dremel and like projects like that, you might find another stock box and play with it. Definitely only if you enjoy that stuff, I can't say it helps or not, so don't quote me on a 10hp gain. Haha

So the new datalog looks great. Again, no knock in the previous area around 60-65mph which is good, these were part throttle ones similar to the area from before. They were in cylinder 2 mostly (4 out of 5 knock), which is the most sensitive again, so I trimmed 2* ignition from that cylinder to see if it quiets down any noise to the knock sensor. Cylinder 2 is notorious for false knock on these, but trimming a couple degrees has helped stop the knock or audible noise the knock sensor deems to be knock. So give this one a shot. WOT fuel was pretty much dialed, I touched up an area by a half percent in one area and 1.5% in another, essentially dialed but I am a little OCD. See how this one goes and keep trying to get that 60-65 area in 6th gear. We've been knock free in that area two datalogs in a row now, so we might have fixed that issue.

Thanks for the confidence boost. I'll be doing a lot of reading and learning more about it all. Excited!

Once they get back to you, I would be interested to see how it worked for them.

Thanks so much for explaining that. I am going to play around with the different gears and knowing it's not bad for the engine give me piece of mind! Thanks for the suggestions and explaining the gears as well. I was playing with it a little on the last drive I went on. I tried taking your suggestions and where I normally would up shift, I stayed in the current gear. Car drove great, and it does feel good to have that torque when you need it and quicker to downshift into the right gear while slowing down.

I did some research into ways people modify the stock airbox. That is definitely something to look into and I may be doing something if I find a cheap used one to mess around with. Have you tuned anyone who has made those changes and noticed anything different in the datalogs?

Here's the datalog for the last revision. It's kind of a long one but more data! I did turn on the option to flash the check engine light when knock is detected, just so I can get an idea of how I am driving and where the car is at when it knocks. Hopefully things are looking good! Car is feeling better with every revision. Thanks again!!!

https://computerhale-my.sharepoint.com/ ... Q?e=9Ossx1

Yeah I'm curious to see what they come back with too. For the one guy, it was really frustrating because I am just trying to help him get through some issues while he waits to put on parts. He purchased a FlashPro and tune package from another tuner, but he had an o2 sensor failure going on so I was helping him get it safe while he waits to put on all his performance parts. Then the one cylinder issue became a problem and didn't make any sense, sort of like your car. We'll see what he says.

That's good that you played with the gears to see how they act. For me there was one instance when I had my 8th gen that being in the proper gear saved me driving down a city side road. I was following a guy in a 35mph zone so I was rolling in third gear. The guy in front of me drifted to the right portion of the lane and acted like he was turning right into a parking lot, so I cheated to the left a little bit and all the sudden he cuts across to turn left into a driveway. Luckily I was able to gas it and go hard left and avoided the whole thing. if I was in fourth gear, he probably would've hit me. So being in the proper gear is always good. The difference in fuel economy is very minor if any when cruising through the city, so feel it out and what you like. Same thing when you're on the highway and there is a big hill or mountain side coming up, be proactive and put it into 5th gear so the engine has a little more leverage getting up the hill over leaving it in 6th gear. Lugging in 6th up a hill will probably provide lower fuel economy than going up in 5th. If we had Dodge Hellcat torque we could go anywhere in 6th gear because it makes so much tq, when we only have 140lbs of tq, we need the leverage of gearing to move around. Once you find the sweet spot for your terrain, and your driving style, you'll be comfortable with it and it becomes second nature.

The air box thing was a decade ago, at least last I checked, and I don't remember it yielding too much of a difference, but then again it was an 8th gen forum so all information needs to be taken with a few grains of salt. :) The main restriction on your setup is the size of the MAF housing area as only so much air can come in through that size hole no matter what you do. Could shaving those veins on the inside cause the air to come in faster, perhaps, smoother, perhaps. It's all sort of up in the air. Even if it did do something to the air coming in, would that yield a noticeable change in power, we don't know for sure. Again if you like to nerd out, you might work more on funneling cool air into the box as intake air temps on these are a good idea to control. Do you still have the stock air box silencer chamber behind the bumper? A lot of guys run fresh air tubes to the front of the car directly into the lower part of the air box to get some cooler air in there during the hot months. The intake temps get really hot with short rams and the stock air box and remove that silence chamber all together. The stock air box is very bad at dissipating heat from my experience, once they get hot they stay hot. So on a 90* day, you could have 130* intake temps and wonder why the car doesn't feel fast. The ECU is pulling fuel and ignition for the hot, less dense air that is coming into the engine. You have the thermal gaskets, so that helps. The other downside is we have hot coolant running through the throttle body, I bypass it on my cars. I don't know how hot it gets where you are, but right now your intake temps are around 85* on average.

So that datalog looked great. I think we're definitely there on all the fueling which is good. No knock still in the 60-65mph range, but we had a couple on part throttle. None of it was in cylinder 2 which is good, they were in 3 and 4 which tells me it's probably legit knock. So I made some adjustments for that. We will see how the next one looks, but we're definitely seeing light at the end of the tunnel I think.

For this next one, I added my sport pedal map to the calibration so you can drive it and see what you think. It basically tightens up the relationship of the pedal movement to the throttle body opening. The other calibrations have my base pedal in them, this one is a little sportier. So it's similar to new generations of cars that have a "sport" mode. Give it a shot, now that you have a good feel for the car, see if you like it or not, and feel free to be honest. If you don't like it, just let me know and we'll go back to the original. 9 out of 10 guys like the sport pedal, but that doesn't mean everyone does. I also checked the box for the flash check engine light for knock since you want that on.

Let me know how this one goes.

I am curious as well. Too bad I did not do more data logs while the car was completely stock, just to have a baseline to compare against as well as see the increase in performance haha. The car definitely feels faster and staying in 1 gear lower feels good.

Regarding the intake setup, I do like to nerd out on little things so if I come across a used one, I'll definitely be testing these methods. What does bypassing the coolant in the throttle body do?

Good to hear we are seeing light at the end of the tunnel. I am about to go for a drive now so will be back with the datalog. Excited to test out the sport pedal map. I'll for sure let you know what I think of it. Thanks for checking that box as well. I'll be back with the datalogs and excited to see how this revision drives! Thanks man!

Hey man! Took it out for a drive yesterday and got the datalogs. It drove great and felt great and no knocks!

But, I had to rush out of my house and I did not have my Flashpro with me, so I could not datalog but it's a good thing we enabled the CEL to flash.

It started knocking in first gear under light acceleration around 2800 - 3000 rpm. Then it would knock in 2nd. It also knocked when I was going up a slight hill and didn't realize I was in 4th gear and should have been in 3rd.

Anyway, I wish I had the datalogs to show what was going on but it did seem to keep getting progressively worse.

Here's the datalogs from the first drive.

WOT - https://computerhale-my.sharepoint.com/ ... g?e=gjJYfk

Normal - https://computerhale-my.sharepoint.com/ ... Q?e=ATno27

Thanks man and I'll need to make sure I always drive and datalog haha. Don't want to miss anything that could help. Thanks again.

Sounds good, no problem. It is what it is, we'll keep tweaking on it. One datalog was knock free, the other one had three knock and only one happened in the area we've been watching. The other two were in vtec. So we're making progress, just keep datalogging and we'll see how it looks. All the fuel looks good, just chasing the knock still now.

Hey man! Glad to hear the fuel is looking good! I was a little busy these past few days but I was able to load up the latest revision and get a good datalog. I did a bunch of different styles of driving. Got highway cruising in 6th gear in the 62 mph range and noticed it knock so went up to 5th and kept it there. Then some regular type of driving around town, with some spirited driving as well as a good 3rd gear WOT pull. This one felt better than the last and loving that aggressive sound of the motor haha.

Looking forward to the completed product and I am liking the sport pedal as well!

Here's the link to the datalog: https://computerhale-my.sharepoint.com/ ... Q?e=oGeWjh

How's things looking? Thanks again for all your time and help man!

No problem at all. Yeah the fueling again looks killer, there are a ton of 0% from target cells on the main cam angle you're driving on out of thousands of samples so that is great. The WOT fueling was absolutely dead on, all 0% throughout the entire range which is great. The fueling is there, I made a couple small tweaks on the part throttle fueling because I'm OCD, but nothing to worry about.

Yeah it looks like it clicked off a few knock and then your upshift to 5th stopped them. The knock it did record were right before the area we've been tweaking on, and they were all in cylinder 2. I pulled a couple more degrees out of 6th gear to see how the knock goes. If the next one records some knock in 6th gear, I will pull some out of the table. I'm just trying to make sure you have the lower gear ignition for low end power, but stop the knocking when you're cruising in 6th. It would be cool if we had ignition tables for each gear. :)

Anyways, give this one a drive when you can. Play with that 6th gear scenario some and we'll see how it goes. Everything else looks great though, and glad you like the sport pedal. We'll keep it then. And I can always give you a final revision with both, just in case.

Nice, good to hear!

And sounds good. I'll cruise in 6th gear again for the datalog but if I was going to accelerate, I would most likely downshift to 5th, accelerate, then upshift to 6th to cruise at 60-62mph.

Is there anything I can do on my end to get ignition tables for each gear? Not sure what that means but let me know if there is anything I can do.

And sounds good. I'll be driving my car today so will take the datalogs and send them over. Thanks man!!

Yeah keep testing that mph range in 6th we're focusing on. It can be a false knock, but I want to make sure we're covering our basis like we did when we switched to speed density. False knock is my most hated thing about doing this. It just makes me uncomfortable to tell people 100% that is the problem. So hopefully we can get it ironed out. At least we got the other issue taken care of by the swap to speed density, that worked out great.

Only an aftermarket ECU like MoTec or Haltech would allow gear based ignition, haha. I was just saying, then I could make 6th gear simply a cruising gear and keep all the ignition in it for the lower gears for part throttle power. When I pull ignition from the tables to stop knock in 6th, that means we're pulling ignition from the lower gears too. They all play on the same field essentially, so gear based ignition would be awesome. At least Hondata gives us gear based ignition retard which is great. Meaning we can pull some timing out of the table in 5th and 6th only so when you click into those gears it pulls our designated timing in those gears. That helps a lot.

Let me know how it goes. We will see if the new changes make a difference. Oh, and if you can't make any WOT pulls that's fine. We've pretty much determined the WOT fuel is great. But if you want to make some pulls, feel free.

Sounds good. I'll make sure to test different scenarios in 6th. Thanks man!

Got it! I didn't know that. That's good to know! Hopefully this helps with it. I'll let you know how it goes and if the changes made a difference. And sounds good. I'll keep from doing the WOT pulls this time and just datalog under normal daily driving. Thanks again for all your info, help, and knowledge!