Hondata

Yea that makes sense honestly now-a-days its a skill alone to be able to fish true from false information on the internet. These days anyone and everyone can say something and understanding that when doing research is important, haha kinda like tuning fuel tables you need a large data pool to make deductions on whats truth.

Oh ok that makes sense! yea itd have to be setup right otherwise you get false info, the only thing is that i feel like you can understand what the settings do but without the proper training and or experience you'd be kinda lost as to what to set it to. Which is where the courses you took, and of course your experience comes in clutch. But yea after that all the things your saying with adjustments makes sense! only thing im thinking is that with each cam angle is there a point where the afr falls off and then you simply cant get it to the desired afr (without crossing lines) or should you be able to theoretically be able to have every value create a perfect AFR? With the part throttle tuning I Agree that it is necessary to have a good part throttle to create a great WOT.

The WOT tuning makes sense too you cant be able to get a good read on the WOT especially if you have different pulls and then possibly pulling out and going in at different RPMS.

WOW over 200 people!! Thats crazy! Yea with that amount of people helped that would surpass most expectations! So with that amount of people done do you ever consider trying to slow down? or is this basically kinda a forever type hobby for you? Yea im sure that'd be very difficult to resist that monetary temptation so thats very admirable that you want to do this without that monetary focus! It is sad that so many things like that have been given a blind eye Especially when you'r dealing with peoples cars which are some peoples pride and joy. Its a very good foundation to be treating everyone's cars with such a high level of respect! I believe you deserve every bit of praise and admiration you get from everyone!

Yea it was really nice to see what you were doing here versus going to some random shop and then they just do their magic (which is a really good thing with the forum rules where all files must be posted)


You and the other guys around the forum deserve all the thanks you get! Keep up the great work!

One last thing its kinda been in the back of my mind id like to do what you do on this forum helping all these people. Id like to have something i can practically put my heart and soul in to (still kinda looking for a decent hobby) and id like to do all that i can to help out and maybe even do some tuning myself (one day xD) so if that's a possibility im all ears!!

Anywho here is the next datalog! im excited for the next CAL!!

One last thing too what is your process for determining the proper cam angles i understand its based on fuel demand but how do you know for instance doing the 5s, 7s, and 22s for the cam angles? Like its not so simple as plugging in 0 10 and 25.

You want a smooth ramp in the cam angle ramp so that it doesn't try to jump up too fast. For instance, on an 8th gen Si, if you command 40* cam angle at 2000 rpm it might be a little jumpy, especially cruising through a parking lot where you're on and off the throttle at low speed. So you want to keep the ramp nice and smooth so the cam isn't rotating too much too fast. You can certainly solid values if you want to, my goal is everything is smooth so the cam angle rotation is always linear and smooth. You also have to understand how the ECU transitions from 10* to 25* too. So there isn't a wrong way to do it necessarily if you want to play with it. If you had a 50* wheel I would be more strict with large ramps, but since you have the 25* wheel still you can't really make too big of a jump. Just don't go from say 10* to 25* within a couple hundred RPM. The cam can only rotate so fast. But to answer your question direct, I'm just hyper focused on soft ramps and keeping things smooth.

Ah ok yea that makes sense it's gonna take time to rotate the cam so yea like you say keep things smooth.

Quick question were you able to take a look at the last datalog I see it isn't downloaded. Just curious 😅

Yeah I missed your post entirely, haha. I saw your shorter followup post and missed your long post...

Misinformation is all too common. I used to see it twenty years ago on forums, but now it seems like it's even more common. And not that it's meant to be misinformation, some people just don't understand what they're talking about. Then of course there are the trolls to, but what can you do. But yes, large data pools are important and should be your main focus. Imagine a golfer pulls out his 9 iron and hits one ball and it goes 140yards, does that mean he hits that club 140 yards? What happens if he hits that club 50 times, will the distance vary? It's the same with fuel tuning, the ECU is trying to hit a target and it might come very close 90% of the time, so if you tuning off a small data pool you are making decisions on small data samples. There is never too much data, for you, if you want to tune for yourself, make an hour datalog if you want. Sadly that is too big of a file to send me, but an hour long datalog will really give you a lot of good data. Perhaps too much, but you get the idea.

Proper training will tell you what the setting are and what they do. And when I say that, there are only a couple you really need to adjust for it to command the part throttle AFR we want all the time. Then you need to make sure you understand the WOT lambda tables. That is where a lot of guys get lost. I won't discuss how some tuners manipulate that tables to make it run in closed loop for WOT. From my experience that is a dangerous route. Mainly being if you tune for WOT in closed loop, you better pray that your primary o2 sensor never fails. If it does, your WOT fuel can be very far off. If you want to discuss that more we can do that off forum, but I don't want people looking into how to tune in closed loop for WOT. Sure it's easier, but tuning WOT in open loop means it doesn't rely on o2 sensor to perform wide open throttle fueling. It goes by what we tune into the tables, again we can discuss that more off forum if that tickles your curiosity.

Fuel table lines should never crossover. There really isn't a way that column 6 let's say should want more fuel than column 9. Load and fuel demand just don't work that way. Again this comes down to learning how to trim datalogs for WOT fueling, and understand data samples and average data. WOT fueling is hard to get average data since you're not driving around in it all the time. But you can make vtec come on at 4000 rpm and then drive around above that rpm to fine tune the high cam stuff if you want. But if lines want to crossover or even touch, something is most likely wrong somewhere. That's again why I tell guys set everything to the 0* cam angle, and tune it until you're happy with everything, then move up. I'm sure people reading my post get tired of hearing that, but I can't stress it enough.

Yeah trimming datalogs to section off the third gear WOT is vital to WOT tuning. You don't want to make fuel tuning adjustments on a 1-4 gear pull. You want the long slow sweep of third gear. Well fourth gear to be honest, but we want you guys safe on the streets and under triple digit speeds so we recommend third gear for streets. Once you have the fuel dialed on third gear pulls, then you can make multi gear pulls just to see how it looks on average. For datalogs, you can always make just a third gear pull datalog too. Hit the button to start right before the pull, and turn it off shortly after letting off. Once you get to understand how to quarantine the third gear pull from full datalogs, it's pretty easy.

Yes I've considered slowing down, and even not doing it anymore. But there is something that draws me back all the time. When you see a killer datalog, sort of like this most recent one you made, it sort of drives you to keep going. That and seeing a guy on here panicked because it isn't running right, knowing I can clean it up in one file and that person is back to having fun. That's the entire reason why Hondata developed all this for us. So it's a cool feeling to flip someones world around and enjoying there car again. As far as doing it forever, I only focus on 06-15 stuff, so however long there is an interest for them I will I suppose. Yeah my focus was never money, and never became about the money. When people started coming to me asking for help after a dyno tune or seeing their tunes, I realized quickly that there is a focus on the money in your pocket and the next customer after you, as opposed to you the customer. That and I've mentioned on here I was tuned over a decade ago by a highly regarded tuner, to which I thought I was getting a special product. Now that I look back on those calibration I received, it's just a Hondata race calibration with some fuel tuning. You can download the very file I got today if you want to, for an 8th gen of course. But yeah, no cam angle tuning like you and I did here, etc. That, coupled with everything I just said, and the training I got, I just can't half a** it for guys. I know what that feels like, and I don't want guys to get that feeling. Granted all money sent to me is up to the customer, I still don't want to give them something I'm not proud of. And you're right, to a lot of people in the world an 06-15 Honda or Acura isn't there thing, but to a lot of us they are very special to us and I know a lot of guys here spent a lot of money to get their cars.

Unfortunately you're right about some tuners out there. What I tell most guys that come to me to look over dyno tunes done, it's not a lack of skill at all, it's a lack of care or willing to provide the time. If you paid me $450 for a dyno session, believe me you'd be on the dyno for a couple hours and I would want you to bring a car full of friends to watch. On the other hand, some just want to get it on the dyno and get it off so the next car can get on. Granted a business is a business, but you have to supply a quality product IMO. I learned from people who charge a premium, but you're getting a premium product.

You can get to a point where you can help on here I'm sure. One thing you you will want to learn quickly is there are going to be some people who think you are their on demand tuner and feel like you should be at there every call. To which you will need to cut the cord for your own sake. My most glaring example of this was a guy I tuned in one day and over 20 files from another country. We then cleaned up the tune a few weeks later when new parts were added. Then shortly after something else changed and the email I received said "we're going to have to tune it again". Not can we, are you willing, are you available, etc. No money was ever offered, implied, or asked for, but there is a limit to the help when all you really want is a small bit of respect at least. So I would say to be sure to curb yourself from getting over anxious and respect your time early on. It's taken me a long time to do that. But as far as tuning there isn't any real magic for an NA k series, it's when you get into boost and what not where a real high quality tuner can transform a car. With that said, I am not that guy, I don't tune boost.

Anyways, I'm rambling now. For this last datalog it looks great. All the fuel is right on, but we did have a couple knock right in the sensitive area. If you look at the high cam 10* and 25* tables you will notice the dip in ignition. That is from the K24 intake manifold. If you ever switch to the RBC, the ignition curves and fuel curves are entirely different and require a complete retune. It's interesting when you see how much all that changes with just an intake manifold. So I made some ignition adjustments for this next one, take it for a spin when you can.

Alright here is the next log!! ill reply later when i have some more time!

Yeah it looks really good. We had a couple knock in part throttle driving. Take this one for a spin when you can.

Here is the next datalog :)

Ah ok yea id prolly do longer than 20 mins if i did it myself yea a large pool definitely makes sense!

Hmm so i guess full understanding of what goes into the settings and how the car wants to run would make a big difference in how those are set. Do you look at the first datalog to aid in figuring out the settings or is it more research than anything else?
In regards to the O2 sensor then.. is it less important for me since we are doing speed density? like how does the car read the AFR i always thought it was the sensor and if it is the sensor then whats the difference between speed density and MAF other than the difference in sensors.

Yea that makes sense for the lines and stuff with the 0*
In regards to fueling referencing the snapshot i have im curious as to why we have -10s and -8s and what not in the higher rpm higher load areas is there a reason the lambda is requesting this? and i guess back to the sensor stuff can we rely on the stock O2 sensor for all this instead of using a wideband? from what i understand the stock is not as reliable compared to a wideband

That sounds like an awesome feeling! and knowing you can do something about it is amazing! i had the scared feeling too (i kinda jumped into hondata without thinking xD) i would see knocks all the time while driving and then sometimes it would jump by 3 or 6 counts and id be scared like crazy xD so i cant stress enough how much help you've been! Thats a good idea too to stay to a certain year group but i doubt theyll be leaving for a while yet xD

Yea that is something to watch out for that people can get entitled, honestly i realize i can sometimes get that way if i dont watch out (i just dont have good social sense sometimes but im working on it xD)

I hope someday i can get to a point where i dont need help from you or others whenever i get a new part so i can just do it myself!
like i said before im hoping to get VTC gear, RDX injectors, 3 inch intake (i dont really know what to get yet or whats out there), And the RBC manifold
again maybe ill be able to do it mostly myself so as not to rely on someone elses goodwill. Anywho! One day! :D

I cant wait for the next cal!

I have a bit of a update i noticed some weird things with knock. In one datalog (#11) i had 2 knock before i started the log and the knock control reaction. and secondly i have another datalog (#12) i got one knock on the log and the knock control took a second to react.

So im curious what is happening here :)

Edit: Calibration rev 10 was used here

So you will want to research and understand open and closed loop. Or more importantly how they work. You'll read how guys like to try to tune in closed loop for WOT fuel. That makes things a lot easier per say, but you're dependent on your o2 sensor not failing. For instance, when you're driving in part throttle you are in closed loop. The ECU is trimming or adding fuel based on the reading from the o2 sensor. If you tune the WOT for closed loop operation, then the AFR is dependent on that working o2 sensor. What happens in WOT in closed loop operation and the o2 sensor goes bad, that means the ECU isn't getting a proper reading and therefore will try to hit the AFR based on how the sensor fails. From my experience, the sensor fails in a lean AFR, therefore the ECU would try to dump a lot of fuel to hit the AFR target. Say the sensor were to fail rich, then it would pull a bunch of fuel to hit the target. Bother scenarios are not ideal.

When you use closed loop for part throttle and then transition to open loop for WOT, once you've tuned the fuel tables as we have, it doesn't use the o2 sensor for fuel control. It essentially uses the hard data in the calibration to provide proper fueling. So in theory the o2 sensor could fall out of the pipe at WOT and the fuel delivered would still be just as we tuned it for. It's more complex than it sounds in a way, but it's very simply in practice. Why would someone tune WOT in closed loop, it's sort of a pick your desired AFR and the ECU will hit it. But if the ECU isn't getting a proper reading from the o2 sensor, then it's no good. There is a reason why Hondata and Honda set them up to use open loop at WOT.

No, none of this applies to speed density only. It would be the same for MAF and SD tunes. Well you don't have a MAF sensor on your car, so all TSXs are tuned SD.

The setting should already be preset, they serve the same function for all k series essentially. You just have to understand what and how the ECU uses certain values to control the commanded AFR. Both in WOT settings and pressures. You'd have to see a datalog where the AFR is "hunting" as I call it. Meaning the commanded AFR is always moving. When it controls static 14.64 for pump gas here, usually you get a little better mileage and better drivability. But no, they shouldn't change by car. If one car has an intake and one has the stock air cleaner, they may need to be adjusted slightly. But you can usually get away with the same setting.

Yeah the settings in your FP manager aren't set up properly to make fuel corrections for WOT. If you look below, mine are slightly different from yours. THe high lean value you see in the upper right portion is just how I transition from part throttle to WOT. It's not really 10% lean, it's just the transition of the table values. But you can see the WOT values are different. I'm not sure what WOT fuel ratio you have in your settings, but that would be the reason. Some of mine are interpretations again from the transition, so they may read a certain value rich or lean, but it's actually right on target if you hover over the cell to see the average AFR. Again for WOT though, you should be making those changes only on third gear only pulls. The difference from speed density and MAF sensor is using the MAF sensor or not. With big tube intakes, the MAF sensor cannot get a proper reading. So you go speed density using the MAP sensor. That doesn't have anything to do with the o2 sensor, or open and closed loop operation. You're just deciding how to best tune it, then either scale the MAF or tune through the fuel tables for speed density.

The stock 02 will get you close, but having a wideband is ideal. Especially if you wire it into the ECU because you can then actually see the wideband data in the datalogs. That is why with the stock 02 I shoot for 12.8 or so. That way if it's a little lean or a little rich you're still in the sweet spot of safety.

No problem, happy to help. Yeah I just don't like the newer boosted stuff from a tuning aspect. Everything runs on algorithms and tables talk to tables that talk to tables that talk to other tables, it's a very different ballgame.

Pretty much anything to do besides the RBC, you can use this tune as a base. You wouldn't need me for any additional tuning with simple bolts on. With the RBC, everything will be 180* different between the fuel tables and the ignition tables. It's honestly pretty crazy how much just the intake manifold changes things. The tune for this setup will be absolutely garbage for an RBC.

Sorry I sort of jumped around a little bit there. Anyways, that newest datalog looks pretty good. We had one knock in second gear but I think it was more of a fluke. Take that same calibration for a spin when you can and we'll see if it looks just as good.

The no reaction essentially means it hasn't been detecing noise from the o2 sensor for a reasonable amount of time. When it hears noise over time it will raise the knock control which pulls timing (if setup to do so and not bypassed) in order to slow or stop the knock. On the one where it raises slowly, it's hearing more noise from the knock sensor so it is trying to decide if you have low octane fuel. The knock control is essentially the ECU studying the response from the knock sensor to determine what octane fuel you have.

I made some small adjustments for the knock. Here is the next one for you.

Yea if and when i do go further i would want to know and understand closed and open loop. And that does sound dangerous on the running of the engine if it fails on WOT so what would be the danger then for part throttle? wouldn't it be just as dangerous?
And if im understanding it correctly the ECU just takes what we put into the tables and then adjusts it accordingly based on the O2 afr readings?

Yea id like to see what is different in our flashpro settings i have a snapshot for my lambda settings so if you could help with that that would be great!
The transition you are making makes sense you dont want to jump straight from 14.64 to 12.8 you'd wanna smoothly change it.

Yea from what I understand once you change anything major the MAF isnt really reliable anymore since its kinda tuned to the OG parts? especially with boost xD but then again with boost your prolly upgrading your MAP anyways too xD
but yea that makes sense its just two different ways of tuning

For that reason and that id like to get more parts im thinking itd be worth my time to get a wideband. Thatd prolly help me tuning myself

Yea that could get complicated very quick if the tables are all interlinked xD

At that point im thinking of getting a big tube intake and the VTC gear first along with a wideband prolly and then after some time get the RBC and the injectors.

Do you have any suggestions for 3 inch intakes? ive found injen but im curious what you think. I mean right now i have a K&N Typhoon intake but ill have to compare that to other options.

Yea im excited for the manifold when i end up doing that!!

Anyways heres the next datalog using the REV 11 Calibration

Hey! Just curious if you saw the last post 😁 no worries if you're just busy!! I understand completely 😅😁

The datalog looks pretty good. Had a couple knock on a fifth gear pull We'll see how it looks in the next one.

Part throttle can take a lot of abuse, when in WOT though things can get bad a lot quicker. The real problem is you won't normally get a check engine light, so it's something you have to datalog and keep an eye on from time to time. Especially now that these cars are getting older. Once the WOT fuel tables are set, the ECU delivers the fuel programmed in those tables. It doesn't use any trims or other data to make adjustments, it literally puts what is in the table and delivers it. Granted it does use temp compensations, but nothing via MAP or MAF, or 02 readings. If it's tune in closed loop for WOT, then it does use the 02 sensor to adjust trims for WOT. Which then it must have a proper working o2 sensor or else things will be way off.

Yeah your settings aren't right for getting the right fuel recommendations. You would want to at least make the 12.5 a 12.8. There are other little tweaks you can make.

Any of the 3.5" intake will work great. The main thing is trying to keep the intake temps down. If you do get a wideband, definitely look into wiring it into the ECU so you can see the wideband data in your datalogs. Otherwise you will have to make adjustments from watching the gauge. Which you can do, but seeing the data in the datalogs really helps. Also be sure you don't turn off the primary o2 just because you put a wideband in the exhaust, the ECU still needs the primary o2 to operate the part throttle driving.

Ok for sure I've been driving for a bit and sometimes driving pretty spirited and no knocks at all only the odd one here and there

So what things should I watch out for other than knock and AFR when driving and when looking at WOT pulls and what not?

Ok I'll get that adjustment made and then do some research in proper settings would I adjust that back to 12.5 when I have the wideband?

Ok sounds good I'll look into the 3.5 inch intakes 😁
Yea I already wasn't sure if the wideband was a replacement or just a third sensor but yea I guess it's just a third one.

I'll send another datalog at some point maybe tomorrow and if not then in a week or two cause I'm going on vacation.

I read in one of the other posts you weren't really gonna take on any new tunes so I'd just like to say thank you for all the help once again! Once I get the RBC hopefully I'll have taken some courses so I can do it all myself! 😁😁

So once again thank you! 😁