Yeah the datalog was great and the WOT pull was solid. It’s such a weird pull to make on the street some guys struggle with finding a good stretch of road.
Generally the only way to find the optimal vtec rpm is by tuning all the fuel tables and using that data to build all the cam angle mapping, or a dyno of course. But it look like yours might benefit a little from a lower vtec rpm. We’ll see though, I’ll look over all the data again in the next one.
You’re welcome. Happy to help you guys get going and have fun with them.
Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Good evening! I'll upload the datalog soon, but some notes I have regarding the feeling of the tune thus far:
- For the full throttle shifting I might not be used to how it feels on this platform, but it did feel a bit odd to me (I'm coming from a 2018 Civic Si on KTuner) Could it just be what I'm used to? I did do one full throttle shift from 2nd to 3rd, you'll probably be able to see it in that log.
- The throttle response did feel a bit different compared to the AEM V2 CAI basemap I was running, maybe for this next one let's try that Sport throttle mapping?
- When doing WOT pulls and continuing WOT into the next gear, the traction control does not engage but I do feel a bit of joltiness that was not present between shifts on the basemap I ran. Could this directly be related to the throttle mapping?
Those are all my thoughts thus far! I will get that datalog up soon.
- For the full throttle shifting I might not be used to how it feels on this platform, but it did feel a bit odd to me (I'm coming from a 2018 Civic Si on KTuner) Could it just be what I'm used to? I did do one full throttle shift from 2nd to 3rd, you'll probably be able to see it in that log.
- The throttle response did feel a bit different compared to the AEM V2 CAI basemap I was running, maybe for this next one let's try that Sport throttle mapping?
- When doing WOT pulls and continuing WOT into the next gear, the traction control does not engage but I do feel a bit of joltiness that was not present between shifts on the basemap I ran. Could this directly be related to the throttle mapping?
Those are all my thoughts thus far! I will get that datalog up soon.
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Yeah the 10th gen platform is very different so it's hard to say how and why they feel different. You're talking boost vs NA, and different parts with different engine management. Not to mention the clutches are different too. Everyone I see try it seems terrified, so it's hard to say. I don't do it in customer cars myself, so I can't tell you for sure what you're feeling.
As far as the issue between shifts, I guess it could be the throttle mapping. The injector cut off times are the same and so is the ignition between shifts, so it's apples to apples as far as what happens on the shifts. The pedal movement to TB rotation will be different, so it could be the way you shift and get back on the throttle don't mesh well with the pedal map. Though it would be weird, because there is so much chaos on the shift with your old tune because the cam angle slams to 0* and then back to 37* right away on WOT shifts which causes things to not be very smooth. I would say if anything, I can put the pedal map from the AEM V2 calibration in there and see how it goes. That would be more of an apples to apples comparison. But let me know.
As far as the issue between shifts, I guess it could be the throttle mapping. The injector cut off times are the same and so is the ignition between shifts, so it's apples to apples as far as what happens on the shifts. The pedal movement to TB rotation will be different, so it could be the way you shift and get back on the throttle don't mesh well with the pedal map. Though it would be weird, because there is so much chaos on the shift with your old tune because the cam angle slams to 0* and then back to 37* right away on WOT shifts which causes things to not be very smooth. I would say if anything, I can put the pedal map from the AEM V2 calibration in there and see how it goes. That would be more of an apples to apples comparison. But let me know.
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Here is the datalog for Revision 2! As for all your notes to my concerns, I completely understand. I'll try driving around more on this next revision to test out the feel more. It might just be me!
Let's try your throttle mapping before moving back to the AEM V2 throttle mapping, I'd like to see how that feels first before going back to something I'm already familar with.
Let's try your throttle mapping before moving back to the AEM V2 throttle mapping, I'd like to see how that feels first before going back to something I'm already familar with.
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Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Sounds good. I went ahead and put in the sport pedal map. Everything is pretty much there on fuel, I tightened up a few areas. I made some adjustments for knock in that last one as well. Take this one for a spin and see what you think, and we'll see how the datalog looks when you post it.
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Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Thanks so much for the quick responses! I'm gonna flash this now and go for some datalogging. It's late now so the roads will be more clear and I can get some better stop and go data for you. I'll keep you posted on the next datalog and how this one feels on WOT and full throttle shifting!
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Question, for this next revision is the VTEC still 4600 and full throttle shifting IS enabled right?
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Yes it's at 4600. I didn't want to throw in too many variables.
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Here is the datalog for Revision 3! There's more stop and go but there is also a bit more aggressive driving in there.
Some things to note from previous concerns:
- I tested out the full throttle shifting more, the noise I'm hearing is most likely just the car doing it's thing to hold the throttle plate open but not completely until shifting into the next gear and releasing the clutch. I did it a few times and got used to how it reacts on this car. The feeling is definitely different on the 10th gen platform, being turbocharged, but I can get used to this. I'm not as scared as others to use the feature just cause I used it all the time on the 10th gen to avoid turbo lag between shifts.
- The throttle response is better! But I do feel a weird jump in power, or an extra pull in some parts of the RPM range. I'm not referring to VTEC either though, I've gotten pretty familiar with how the VTEC engagement feels in terms of extra pull. Not sure if this has to do with throttle mapping still. How does your "Sport" setting compare to the AEM V2 CAI basemap settings? I'm between both of them.
- WOT shifts between gears were a bit jolty but I think that's me just getting used to it. After a few runs I got used to how it reacts between harder and higher shifts. I don't think it's anything of concern, just a little bit of an adjustment on my end.
- I also adjusted the clutch pedal a bit more to aid in these high RPM shifts from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, so on. The pedal engagement used to be pretty close to the floor, but I have adjusted it more to engage a little higher (around halfway or so) and though my left leg has to get used to the engagement again, it does feel better in terms of confidence with high RPM and fast shifting.
Little bit of a fun backstory for you, after I finished the datalogging some random BMW Z4 pulled up to me and we ran it a few times. I won every single one of them! Granted the older gen Z4's aren't the fastest things in the world, a win is still a win in my book. You can really see the VTEC putting in work once it "kicked in yo!" Those runs made me excited to see the potential that could be had with the Full Race Exhaust and Skunk2 Alpha header installed! Hoping to see even more results then.
Thank you again!
Some things to note from previous concerns:
- I tested out the full throttle shifting more, the noise I'm hearing is most likely just the car doing it's thing to hold the throttle plate open but not completely until shifting into the next gear and releasing the clutch. I did it a few times and got used to how it reacts on this car. The feeling is definitely different on the 10th gen platform, being turbocharged, but I can get used to this. I'm not as scared as others to use the feature just cause I used it all the time on the 10th gen to avoid turbo lag between shifts.
- The throttle response is better! But I do feel a weird jump in power, or an extra pull in some parts of the RPM range. I'm not referring to VTEC either though, I've gotten pretty familiar with how the VTEC engagement feels in terms of extra pull. Not sure if this has to do with throttle mapping still. How does your "Sport" setting compare to the AEM V2 CAI basemap settings? I'm between both of them.
- WOT shifts between gears were a bit jolty but I think that's me just getting used to it. After a few runs I got used to how it reacts between harder and higher shifts. I don't think it's anything of concern, just a little bit of an adjustment on my end.
- I also adjusted the clutch pedal a bit more to aid in these high RPM shifts from 1st, 2nd, 3rd, so on. The pedal engagement used to be pretty close to the floor, but I have adjusted it more to engage a little higher (around halfway or so) and though my left leg has to get used to the engagement again, it does feel better in terms of confidence with high RPM and fast shifting.
Little bit of a fun backstory for you, after I finished the datalogging some random BMW Z4 pulled up to me and we ran it a few times. I won every single one of them! Granted the older gen Z4's aren't the fastest things in the world, a win is still a win in my book. You can really see the VTEC putting in work once it "kicked in yo!" Those runs made me excited to see the potential that could be had with the Full Race Exhaust and Skunk2 Alpha header installed! Hoping to see even more results then.
Thank you again!
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Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Yeah I've never been in a 10th gen, so I really don't have any experience in the feeling of it. It's one of those things you just have to get used to as you mention.
The sport pedal vs the AEM V2 is fairly similar above 6000 rpm, from say 0-4000 rpm, my pedal is still not 1:1 one by any means but certainly a lot tighter. It's sort of weird to explain, but let's say you take off from the line at 30% throttle movement and held it on the AEM V2 map, the throttle body only opens 10.4% off idle, 12.4% at 2000 rpm, 16.1% at 3000 rpm, and at 4500 rpm it's only opening 21.2%. So you can see how you're pushing the pedal 30%, but the throttle body is only opening 1/3 or 2/3 of what your foot is pushing. When you have a cable throttle body you're opening the throttle body 1:1 of course. For my sport pedal, at 30%, it's 18% off idle, 20% at 2000, 23.3% at 3000, and at 4500 it's 26.5%. So it tightens it up some, but not to where it might make it jerky on the takeoff, though some guys have experienced it which is why I wait until the end of the tuning process to present it. The goal is as you move up in rpm, the throttle body opening to pedal movement moves up too. Sort of like your your 10th gen, when you put in sport mode, it tightens up the pedal map. Pretty much any car with a "sport" mode, the pedal map adjustments is part of that strategy. So for 8th gens, since they don't have a sport button, I tried to develop a pedal map that gave you the same sensation.
When I test drove an 8th gen prior to buying one, I couldn't believe how lazy the throttle pedal was, the factory pedal map is really lacking. If you want to see the difference visually I can send you screenshots of the AEM V2 pedal map and and my sport pedal. The increase in power you feel that is not vtec could be partially the pedal map, could also be cam angle mapping. As you go up in RPM and load, the cam angle ramps too.
Those older Z4s are fairly quick. But yeah, I couldn't even stress to you what a different car it will be with the header and exhaust with a tune. It's like a whole nother' car all together.
One thing I noticed in this most recent datalog, the injector duty cycle is in the mid 80% on the WOT pull, with the mods you have planned they will most likely max them out. I would recommend getting RDXs injectors before you put everything together. I can lean it out to something like 13.1 at redline, but I think it will still get close to maxing the stock ones, your car seems pretty strong for just an intake. If you look into the RDX injectors, please buy them from Heeltoe or Hybrid Racing, something like that. There are fake ones on eBay and other places causing a lot of issues. See this blog for more info https://iconicauto-design.com/blogs/new ... -injectors .
Anyways, let me know which pedal map you want to go with next and we will throw that in for the next revision.
The sport pedal vs the AEM V2 is fairly similar above 6000 rpm, from say 0-4000 rpm, my pedal is still not 1:1 one by any means but certainly a lot tighter. It's sort of weird to explain, but let's say you take off from the line at 30% throttle movement and held it on the AEM V2 map, the throttle body only opens 10.4% off idle, 12.4% at 2000 rpm, 16.1% at 3000 rpm, and at 4500 rpm it's only opening 21.2%. So you can see how you're pushing the pedal 30%, but the throttle body is only opening 1/3 or 2/3 of what your foot is pushing. When you have a cable throttle body you're opening the throttle body 1:1 of course. For my sport pedal, at 30%, it's 18% off idle, 20% at 2000, 23.3% at 3000, and at 4500 it's 26.5%. So it tightens it up some, but not to where it might make it jerky on the takeoff, though some guys have experienced it which is why I wait until the end of the tuning process to present it. The goal is as you move up in rpm, the throttle body opening to pedal movement moves up too. Sort of like your your 10th gen, when you put in sport mode, it tightens up the pedal map. Pretty much any car with a "sport" mode, the pedal map adjustments is part of that strategy. So for 8th gens, since they don't have a sport button, I tried to develop a pedal map that gave you the same sensation.
When I test drove an 8th gen prior to buying one, I couldn't believe how lazy the throttle pedal was, the factory pedal map is really lacking. If you want to see the difference visually I can send you screenshots of the AEM V2 pedal map and and my sport pedal. The increase in power you feel that is not vtec could be partially the pedal map, could also be cam angle mapping. As you go up in RPM and load, the cam angle ramps too.
Those older Z4s are fairly quick. But yeah, I couldn't even stress to you what a different car it will be with the header and exhaust with a tune. It's like a whole nother' car all together.
One thing I noticed in this most recent datalog, the injector duty cycle is in the mid 80% on the WOT pull, with the mods you have planned they will most likely max them out. I would recommend getting RDXs injectors before you put everything together. I can lean it out to something like 13.1 at redline, but I think it will still get close to maxing the stock ones, your car seems pretty strong for just an intake. If you look into the RDX injectors, please buy them from Heeltoe or Hybrid Racing, something like that. There are fake ones on eBay and other places causing a lot of issues. See this blog for more info https://iconicauto-design.com/blogs/new ... -injectors .
Anyways, let me know which pedal map you want to go with next and we will throw that in for the next revision.
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Yup! Pretty much, I can get used to it.
And got it, yeah that makes a lot of sense. The pedal response always varied between tunes on my 10th gen too and I'm sure that's from the ability for the car to adjust throttle input since it's electronically controlled.
And yeah, the throttle mapping on a bone stock 8th gen was INSANE. Not in a good way, either. I had never driven one prior to buying this one and I would be lying if I didn't say I was underwhelmed off the bat. The FlashPro really is what woke things up.
That makes me really excited! Hope to get my header and exhaust in soon too.
And yeah I read into that too, I was actually going to ask soon what your recommendation was based off of what you saw. I'll definitely look into getting those in as well, AND avoiding any eBay knockoffs, before getting tuned on the exhaust and header. I'll probably seek help from you again once that time comes.
Let's keep your Sport mapping in!
Thank you thank you thank you again, your responses are insanely detailed and comprehensive. Hats off to you for all of your help you've been providing.
And got it, yeah that makes a lot of sense. The pedal response always varied between tunes on my 10th gen too and I'm sure that's from the ability for the car to adjust throttle input since it's electronically controlled.
And yeah, the throttle mapping on a bone stock 8th gen was INSANE. Not in a good way, either. I had never driven one prior to buying this one and I would be lying if I didn't say I was underwhelmed off the bat. The FlashPro really is what woke things up.
That makes me really excited! Hope to get my header and exhaust in soon too.
And yeah I read into that too, I was actually going to ask soon what your recommendation was based off of what you saw. I'll definitely look into getting those in as well, AND avoiding any eBay knockoffs, before getting tuned on the exhaust and header. I'll probably seek help from you again once that time comes.
Let's keep your Sport mapping in!
Thank you thank you thank you again, your responses are insanely detailed and comprehensive. Hats off to you for all of your help you've been providing.
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Yeah the first 8th gen I drive, I made a road trip 2 hours each way after work one day because it was the first one near me. Once I drove it I loved it, but the pedal stood out to me. Granted at the time it was my first DBW car, so I chalked it up to that. When I bought my 8th gen though, I was disappointed getting on the freeway and missing second gear. Thankfully the EM1 parts swap over, haha.
When you look into the RDXs, you also want to look into getting the Toyota injector clips so you can make it a plug n play connection without having to cut your stock harness. I think Hybrid Racing sells a package, if not, Heeltoe sells the clips and the injectors separately. I can give you the part numbers for all of it you want to check local dealers too. But yeah, based on what I see I would definitely throw this in. The main problem with them being in the mid 80% now with more planned mods, if you ever go somewhere on a snow day or somewhere it gets very cold, the ECU adds fuel for the cold dense air, to which you would really max them out. It will makes thing easier for you and your eventual tuner, nothing worse than DarDan fitting you in and then you run out of injectors.
With the header and exhaust, first gear will be essentially traction less if you try to make a hit from a stop. Even from a slow roll it will spin the tires unless you have some really sticky tires. It's controllable fun though, you'll like it.
So here is the next one. I left the sport pedal in per your request. I'm really just chasing a few knock, other than that the fuel stuff still looks great. Take this one for a spin when you can. And you're welcome man, I enjoy seeing you guys out having fun with the car.
When you look into the RDXs, you also want to look into getting the Toyota injector clips so you can make it a plug n play connection without having to cut your stock harness. I think Hybrid Racing sells a package, if not, Heeltoe sells the clips and the injectors separately. I can give you the part numbers for all of it you want to check local dealers too. But yeah, based on what I see I would definitely throw this in. The main problem with them being in the mid 80% now with more planned mods, if you ever go somewhere on a snow day or somewhere it gets very cold, the ECU adds fuel for the cold dense air, to which you would really max them out. It will makes thing easier for you and your eventual tuner, nothing worse than DarDan fitting you in and then you run out of injectors.
With the header and exhaust, first gear will be essentially traction less if you try to make a hit from a stop. Even from a slow roll it will spin the tires unless you have some really sticky tires. It's controllable fun though, you'll like it.
So here is the next one. I left the sport pedal in per your request. I'm really just chasing a few knock, other than that the fuel stuff still looks great. Take this one for a spin when you can. And you're welcome man, I enjoy seeing you guys out having fun with the car.
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Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
I get really worried when I slip up and end up missing/grinding 2nd... How bad is it for the car? Maybe I should invest in a refresh in the near future for the syncros.
For the injectors I found a set of plug and play adapters from K-Series Parts! I know other kits come with pins but I would much rather be able to unplug and swap back to stock injectors if I ever needed to do so. I'm just going to compare prices from local dealerships and online to see where I can get the best deal for real injectors. I can get discount at the dealership so maybe that will help me out. I'm hoping it doesn't dip any colder than now and don't think it will honestly. We're hitting our lowest temps at night in San Diego right now and that's when I was datalogging so hopefully at that's one of the reasons it was also reading higher.
I can't wait to feel that! Intake alone on this tune it's still a blast to drive.
Thanks for this next revision! I'll probably drive it later today, I'm going to be stuck at my computer for the majority of this afternoon and weekend. Would this be the final revision for my current setup on just the HR intake? Or would you like me to log some more for you?
For the injectors I found a set of plug and play adapters from K-Series Parts! I know other kits come with pins but I would much rather be able to unplug and swap back to stock injectors if I ever needed to do so. I'm just going to compare prices from local dealerships and online to see where I can get the best deal for real injectors. I can get discount at the dealership so maybe that will help me out. I'm hoping it doesn't dip any colder than now and don't think it will honestly. We're hitting our lowest temps at night in San Diego right now and that's when I was datalogging so hopefully at that's one of the reasons it was also reading higher.
I can't wait to feel that! Intake alone on this tune it's still a blast to drive.
Thanks for this next revision! I'll probably drive it later today, I'm going to be stuck at my computer for the majority of this afternoon and weekend. Would this be the final revision for my current setup on just the HR intake? Or would you like me to log some more for you?
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
Yeah it sucks. You will also know when the clutch is gone too, you will grind second gear just shifting into it normally. At least on my old 8th gen. My first clutch went out at 60k, had a little grind going into second gear. Then I sold the car to a friend, same thing around 120K. Could be random, but that seems to be a common clue the clutch is going out. As for the grind, it's not great for the trans, but as long as you're not doing it multiple times you should be fine. I there are some guys that like to just go out and beat the daylights out of it and grind multiple times on one shift, that's not great.
If you can get a dealer discount that works. The part number is 16450-RWC-A01, or maybe someone who knows someone might work at a dealer and get an employee discount. Either way, if you find some for $150 somewhere, do not buy them. Haha.
Your last datalog, on the WOT pull, the IATs were 52* on the hit and 45* at redline, at 45* on WOT the ECU is adding roughly 4% fuel for the cold air. So that is part of the reason injector duty cycle is high, but with the mods you have coming, even at higher temps you will max them. That's one nice thing about helping guys on here, some of the Canadian guys I work with have some insane cold temps so I get to see a lot of that data and how it works. Then I try to transfer that to you guys. To further elaborate, say you went somewhere and your intake temps were 0*, the ECU will add 11% at 0* for the extremely cold air on the WOT pulls. Not that you would ever go somewhere that cold, but I like to make it where you can go anywhere and not have to second guess things.
This might be the final revision, I'm just trying to get some knock to go away and that's it really. Then I like to see a few datalogs that are knock free before I call it good. At this point though, you can drive it whenever you have time. No need to run out and make random datalogs. The fuel stuff is there, the knock should be gone in this one, but we'll see.
If you can get a dealer discount that works. The part number is 16450-RWC-A01, or maybe someone who knows someone might work at a dealer and get an employee discount. Either way, if you find some for $150 somewhere, do not buy them. Haha.
Your last datalog, on the WOT pull, the IATs were 52* on the hit and 45* at redline, at 45* on WOT the ECU is adding roughly 4% fuel for the cold air. So that is part of the reason injector duty cycle is high, but with the mods you have coming, even at higher temps you will max them. That's one nice thing about helping guys on here, some of the Canadian guys I work with have some insane cold temps so I get to see a lot of that data and how it works. Then I try to transfer that to you guys. To further elaborate, say you went somewhere and your intake temps were 0*, the ECU will add 11% at 0* for the extremely cold air on the WOT pulls. Not that you would ever go somewhere that cold, but I like to make it where you can go anywhere and not have to second guess things.
This might be the final revision, I'm just trying to get some knock to go away and that's it really. Then I like to see a few datalogs that are knock free before I call it good. At this point though, you can drive it whenever you have time. No need to run out and make random datalogs. The fuel stuff is there, the knock should be gone in this one, but we'll see.
Re: Basemap Suggestions or File Needed
I think I experienced that with my younger brothers 1997 4 door Integra LS. He was having a rough time shifting into 2nd, not necessarily grinding but he had to really budge it into gear to get moving. I ended up replacing the clutch myself and rest assured, the old clutch was shot. But I was surprised to see it was still an OEM clutch after 180K miles. Not bad!
I don't know the maintenance history of the car but do know the oil was changed on time. I plan on changing it over to Amsoil Syncromesh since I have had some experience with it in my 10th gen and see other reviews of it. Any thoughts on a different fluid other than OEM Honda stuff?
And yup I will definitely keep that in mind. I refuse to pay anything roughly under the true price of these injectors. LOL.
And that's a great way to look at it! Good insight on making those adjustments.
Noted! I will flash this one when I can and probably drive it around later tonight. I love driving the car in general so I'll make any excuse to go out and give it a spin. I'll probably get another datalog to you by later tonight just to see how it's doing. Other than that though I'm loving how it's running even on just a tune for the intake!
I don't know the maintenance history of the car but do know the oil was changed on time. I plan on changing it over to Amsoil Syncromesh since I have had some experience with it in my 10th gen and see other reviews of it. Any thoughts on a different fluid other than OEM Honda stuff?
And yup I will definitely keep that in mind. I refuse to pay anything roughly under the true price of these injectors. LOL.
And that's a great way to look at it! Good insight on making those adjustments.
Noted! I will flash this one when I can and probably drive it around later tonight. I love driving the car in general so I'll make any excuse to go out and give it a spin. I'll probably get another datalog to you by later tonight just to see how it's doing. Other than that though I'm loving how it's running even on just a tune for the intake!