Questions about tuning (dyno, boosted applications...)

[Razathorn]

I've got a k20a2 rsx type-s that I'm going to be putting a HKS turbo kit with FMIC on. I think I will be using a new fuel pump and 550 cc injectors (12 ohm). I've pretty much decided to go with kpro after seeing the videos -- being a software engineer, I know first hand what it takes to do what you guys did with kmanager and the whole kpro product -- damned impressive and _complete_. I had a few questions that are just eating me up not knowing. I'm going to be getting the training DVD through my local hondata dealer asap as well.

1) What parts of tuning requires a dyno.

After seeing the vids on the site, I am under the impression that the only reason you use a dyno is to identify which cam angles to use at what rpm / map after tuning 0 - 50 on ignition and fuel. Is this the case, or are their other times you use the dyno (besides checking results for power)?

2) Can an in car dyno such as the dynorad (http://www.dynorad.com/) be used in place of an actual dyno. Obviously, this gizmo doesn't have a o2 sensor of its own or a tail sniffer, but given that the A/F can be logged by kpro with the wideband on the US rsx type-s, what reason would their be besides accuracy of power reporting to use a real strap down dyno. I mean once you tune ignition and fuel, your A/F should be good all around and you're really just identifying what cam angles to go with for power right? I guess it boils down to I want to have way more fun with the kpro than money would permit at a dyno shop ... and I somewhat want to be able to tune myself, or at least double check / work with the person tuning.

3) Given that all the training vids I have seen say to run pulls on 0 - 50 for the entire rpm range, wouldn't this destroy a boosted motor. How does one safely tune a boosted car... what is the right procedure... what map should we start out with.

And last but not least... a general question that probably has nothing to do with kpro: is detonation detected as knock by the k series motor? Is detonation a 'more pronounced' knock... or is it basically 'nock under boost'. How much detonation == dead motor in general, and how does one avoid it during tuning.

Also, lean conditions -- how are those avoided during tuning and what warning / failsafe do we have when tuning kpro and lean conditions happen.

Thanks, in advance, I know it's a load of stuff, but I didn't really see answers to that stuff anywere after watching all the vids and reading here and on clubrsx.

Wayne

[Hondata]

You can do most of the fuel tuning yourself, without a dyno. However, the ignition timing and cam angle need a dyno. In our experience the in car dynos are not accurate enough to help when tuning (often this not because the dyno is not accurate but the conditions are hard to control). Having said that, the ignition in the supplied calibrations is very close - I've never had to change it more then 2 degrees, and even then it is only a couple of hp at best. The cam angle will depend on exhaust restriction but again the supplied values are often fairly close.

The definition of detonation & knock varies - some peope claim they are the same thing, others break knock down into 'spark knock', 'fuel knock' etc. I break detonation down into 'pre-ignition' and 'knock'. Pre-ignition is when the mixture reaches auto ignition before the spark. It is very rare, and pretty hard to achieve unless you are running heptane. It also damages the engine very quickly. Knock is when the burning flame front compresses the unburnt mixture to an auto ignition point. It varies from very slight to quite bad depending on how much unburnt mixture ignites. Slight knock won't do anything to the engine, while moderate knock over time will overheat the piston, and severe knock will break the piston ring lands fairly quickly. There is more information on the internet, but a lot is inaccurate. Researching auto ignition point for fuel is a good start. As a rule on the dyno if you can hear more than about 1 or 2 knocks per second, abort the run, or if the knock seems to be increasing in frequency. Sometimes tuning the correct cam angle will eliminate all the knock so a little knock is OK at first on the dyno.

Tuning a turbo the best approach is to hold the wastegate open to limit the boost so that you can tune the under little or no boost. With internal wastegates you can usually unscrew the linkage or use vicegrips; with external wastegates you can take the spring out. Don't pull an intercooler pipe off - the turbo will overspeed.

Limit the rpm initially on the dyno (I do the low cam to 6500 rpm at first). The main thing is to keep an eye on the AF ratio when on the dyno, and stop the dyno if you run lean or hear and knock. Under boost I'll abort the dyno if it runs leaner than about 13.5:1, but at higher boost levels I'll abort sooner than 13.5:1

My suggestion would be to find someone with experience tuning a turbo to help you.

[Razathorn]

if I was able to find a nice flat stretch of road and picked a gear to pull in, is running the in car dyno a possibility?

From your response, are you saying that you can and are suposed to tune all the way up to 50 degrees cam on boost?

What maps should one use when tuning a boosted engine -- are they are very similar?

Wayne

[Razathorn]

I managed to get ahold of two hondata dealers that do tuning earlier. One of them basically said that you never really get to the 50 degree cams, that basically, just start with one of the boosted maps and adjust the a/f. He said that basically, adjusting cam at that point is the last step when you start with a good base map. Is this generally the case?

Also, when tuning boosted, should we one be using anything other than the EAR and knock sensor to detect detonation?

I see in the training videos that the guy is tuning based on data logs where he sees lean spikes from the STOCK o2 sensor in the k20a2 rsx type-s -- at what point does the 'real' A/F sniffer come in here or is it general practice to just tune via datalog and only break out the sniffer if you only want to check the primary o2.

I'm planning on getting an A/F gauge, EGT gauge, fuel pressure gauge, and a boost gauge. Can is the A/F gauge and EGT gauge the best route for tuning information.

Sorry if these seem like very elementry questions -- I want to understand all of this and be as informed as possible. I have a hard time investing in a turbo and ecu and just handing it to somebody and saying 'go make it work' at $150-200 an hour. I've got to be able to do some of this. I have inquired with two local hondata dealers on getting the training DVD, so perhaps that will help.

[Razathorn]

I'm also beginning to wonder if I should just get the kpro first and have some time with it and kmanager before jumping right into my first turbo application. That sounds a bit more sane. N/A seems to be more forgiving from what i've read.

[Razathorn]

I wanted to update this thread. I have since done a full N/A tune with kpro and have installed and cleaned up the fuel tables for my jackson supercharger at 7psi. A few answers to my own questions I found out:

I could hear knock N/A, but with boost, I cannot hear it when the ecu detects it due to how much louder the car is.

I managed to create a system that read the kpro datalogs and average data out and made acceleration factors with smoothing and it was very accurate for tuning cam angles. Now that i'm doing forced induction, I have found that 3rd gear goes by way to fast and I need a partner or to be on a dyno regardless.

The in car dyno system I had was way to inconsistent to tune with at all... period.

Also, in the posts above, I had confused VTC cam angles with ignition timing warnings I had read. I was very new to the cam timing thing and was pretty confused with what I had read and how it affected things.