2005 Calibration

[civic1234]

First I would like to thank Hondata for replying and I also apologize If I posted more than once about this matter,
I'm just really trying to figure this and understand the pre canned basemaps.

The first picture is from a canned "TUNED" Stock D16A on S300 program.
I personally did a test on this map a few years ago on a 100% stock D16A with an exception of an adjustable fuel pressure
regulator to be able to see if I can hit 14.7 AFR on part throttle load conditions without touching the fuel values on open loop.
I have tried every possible PSI on the regulator to dial it in at 14.7 Open loop using this map and it is not Possible to be in the
14.7 range in all part throttle load conditions (18-5 inch of vacuum) sea level elevation.

I was under the impression that I should be able to disable the O2 sensor and run open loop and it would be at 14.0-15.5
ball park at least! But not even close!

In other words, this "D16A TUNED MAP" is no where near close to being tuned on
OPEN LOOP part throttle!

I even put back the stock fuel pressure regulator on the same D16A and tried to just adjust the over all fuel trim to try
to hit 14.7 on part throttle on all low load condition and still did not work! Bottom line: This "TUNED" map simply does not
look like it was actually tuned on the street for part throttle in the 14.7 like it should or at-least the ball park.

How do I know this? I have personally also tuned open loop on a stock D16A and uploaded the map on another stock D16A
on Open Loop and I was able to hit the same 14.7 AFR on all part throttle load conditions including idle just by adjusting
the global or OVER ALL FUEL TRIM by +5% and it even hit the same AFR on WOT on both stock D16A. The 5% difference
was probably due to the other car having a slightly lower PSI fuel regulator but it was not WAY OFF like this D16 Map.
And to add to this note, My fuel 2D graph was WAY SMOOTHER than this D16 tuned map with no sharp bumps like it is.

QUESTIONS I WANT ANSWERED:
1. Why is the fuel map of this "TUNED D16A" very jagged?
2. Why is the ignition values of this Tuned D16 90% the same as the "stock everything 2001 ITR" on S300?
3. Was this even street tuned for partial throttle or just full load?
4. Why does your maps have jagged edges and bumpy when you preach that a map should be smooth?

Now, the picture on the bottom, you can clearly see that the so called "2005 K20Z DYNO TUNED" Map that comes with every
single Kpro manager software is very jagged and COLUMN 6 even has an OVERLAP! I know this is not
suppose to be, doesn't Hondata preach and teach that the map should look very smooth and avoid OVERLAPPING???

Anybody can try to open this same exact map and they will see that I did not manipulate or change this map in
any way shape or form, this is how it came with from hondata KPRO Software downloaded directly from Hondata.

And when you say the ECU does not use the ignition values on idle on Flash PRO, then does that mean even if I put 50 degrees
timing on idle from column 1-3 say up to 1200 RPM on Flash PRO that it would not matter because pretty much the
Honda ECU will give its OWN timing anyways???

If that is the case then why do we even need to put any values on that part of the ignition table if the ECU is going to
over ride it and have its own idle timing anyways, And you don't think 30 degrees is not too much advance on idle at
normal operating temp? I can understand if the car is cold but the values on the base timing is fixed at 30+/- timing at 500-1500 RPM!

I noticed this on flash pro tuning an S2k one time, I would put 16 degrees timing and
datalog would say 5-6 degrees only! So what is even the point on putting values there if this is the case?

I have a lot more pics I can show you but I want to start here and maybe you can answer it and nip it in the bud once and for all.
As you can see just by the OVERLAP on column 6, this is the reason why I was questioning if this was really a tuned map.
I expected better 2D graphs from a so called "Tuned map" and not have all kinds of jagged flow and overlaps!

Questions I want answered:

1. Why is there an overlap on column 6 ignition table on this pre canned "2005 K20Z DYNO TUNED MAP" from Hondata KPRO?
2. Why are the ignition 2D map so rough and jagged and does not have a nice smooth "Plateau" ignition timing on top end?
3. Is the reason why low cam angles tables looks very rough is because it was only dyno tuned and no street tune on low loads?
4. You said that Honda stock equivalent value is 33+/- ignition base timing (2013 SI), does that mean that if I use a Snap on Scan tool
that it will read 33 +/- degrees advance timing at 700-900 RPM on idle at full operating temp on a 100% stock 2013 Civic Si?

This is not to bash on Hondata because I love and use this product, I just merely want an answer.
Thanks again Hondata I will be waiting for the reply.

[Hondata]

I've moved the post here (from the 2013 Si forum) as the post related to the RSX more than any other vehicle. If you tell us what system then I can put this in a more appropriate place, or is this a 'mental exercise' with undetermined goals?

We have a 2005/2006 RSX and have dyno tuned it.

1. Ignition table overlap is not unusual. Large parts of the table are normally flat.
2. The flat part of the table is because this is a low speed cam and 5000 rpm onwards is not normally used.
3. I would not consider the tables rough; see above.
4. No, because of ignition controlled idle.

Again, if you have a system & calibration for us to look at let us know.

[civic1234]

OK thanks again for replying Hondata, I was not aware that you moved the post, please advise me next time.
The reason why I posted this in other Hondata software is because its more of a general question because I have seen
pretty much every single base maps from KPRO, FLASH PRO, And S300 and they all are similar in jaggedness and some overlaps.

I have been using your products from K-PRO, FLASH AND S300 for a number of years now and just finally wanted to ask you guys.

OK let's try this again and I want to shorten my line of questioning because I really want them answered.
PLEASE ANSWER THEM ACCORDING TO THE NUMBER IT WAS ASKED, PLEASE PLEASE PLEASE.
I cannot beg you enough. Let's use K manager as an example

I have 2 different pictures using K manager as an example:
The first one is the original map named "2005 K20Z RSX with Cold air intake Dyno Tuned" map tuned by Hondata on K manager.
The second one the same exact map but only slightly modified "SMOOTH OUT" by me.

1. Doesn't Hondata teach and preach that "OVERLAPPING" specially in ignition tables is not good, Yes or No?

2. On the original Hondata map on column 6 from 1750 - 3000 RPM, isn't that a clear ignition table overlap, Yes or No?

3. Why didn't you smooth out the ignition table on 2D from 500-3000 RPM like I did on the modified Map?

4. The modified map was tweaked very little to smooth out the curve, don't you agree that it is a much better curve?

5. Let's say both maps make the same power and no knock or any detonation on both, and you only had 1 choice to pick
from the 2 maps, Would you still choose the original map OR the "Much smoother" map if all things are equal in result?

6. I understand that from 4600k-redline RPM that it does not use those values on WOT since VTEC is set at 4600rpm
but why not plateau it anyways all the way to redline for a much better looking map?

Again PLEASE answer in numerical order as it was asked, thank you Hondata and will be waiting.

[Hondata]

1. Fuel tables should produce a 2d graph where the lines never overlap, with the exception around the WOT translation at ~ 85 kPa where the lines may do so. Ignition tables often end up a little messy because the ideal ignition advance may be jagged.
2. Yes.
3. Because there probably was a reason why the tables ended up looking like they did.
4. It looks smoother, but I would not consider it better because the tuned values have been changed.
5. See #4
6. Again because the tuned values have been altered. There are 5 degrees more ignition advance at high rpm, which could be a problem under some circumstances (if the engine goes in an error condition which switches back to the 0 degree cam angle).

In summary I think you're applying the fuel table tuning logic to ignition tables, where spiky 2d graphs are not unusual.

[civic1234]

OK thanks for the reply. I understand the TUNED HONDATA MAP has been altered but...
Once again I want to ask this question because I'm unsatisfied with the answer:

Hypothetically, Let's say both maps make the same exact power and no knock or any detonation whatsoever on both maps and
pretend for a minute that they are both within a safe limit and way below the threshold of knock and detonation based on a very
precise dyno testing, Knock sensors and other very precise equipment's and Pretend for a minute that you can only
pick 1 from the 2 maps. Keep in mind ONLY 1

Would you HONESTLY still choose the "Original map" (Little jagged) OR the "Much smoother" map if all things are equal in power and result?

Thanks for your honest reply, I will be waiting.

[civic1234]

Still patiently waiting for the reply on the last question

[Hondata]

I've answered that - see #3,4 & 6 above.

[civic1234]

Thank you for admitting that column 6 had an ignition OVERLAP, Now the follow up question is this:
IS IT EVER ACCEPTABLE TO HAVE AN IGNITION OVERLAP SPECIALLY IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MAP AT COLUMN 6?
I see only 2 possible answers here, Either Hondata will admit that this "TUNED" ignition overlap was an ERROR by the tuner and was overlooked by Hondata OR
you will tell me that ignition overlapping in the middle of the map is totally acceptable. which one is it HONDATA? Please answer with 100% direct and no beating around the bush on this one because this is very important for me to know.

And it seems like I'm not going to get a straight answer on the last hypothetical question so I will move on to another question that might actually get a straight answer, and just so you know it is really frustrating to not get an answer as simple as yes or no.

On the fuel table below, I have personally tuned fuel tables that are on OPEN LOOP to make sure that the raw fuel curve and values are within +2/-2% from 14.7 AFR. By the looks of the TUNED HONDATA FUEL CURVE I can almost bet my entire life's savings that if that fuel curve is put on OPEN LOOP, it will not be within the 14.7 range and would have a huge +10/-15% fuel correction to hit stoich. WHY IS THE HONDATA FUEL CURVE SO ROUGH AS WELL???

Here is a pic of a fuel curve that will hit a near perfect 14.7 within +2/-2 fuel correction on open loop at any part throttle load condition from idle all the way up to 4000 RPM from 20 inHG - 8 inHG of Vacuum and took a lot of street tuning to get to this curve.

Notice how the fuel curve is so much smother than Hondat's Tuned fuel curve? This fuel curve will hit in open loop 14.7 from idle all the way to around 7-8 inch of vacuum with no O2 correction and around 12.9-12.5 AFR on full throttle.

If we Compare this to Hondata's TUNED FUEL MAP above, you will clearly see the big difference! Am I the only one seeing this or is everyone else just relying on the stock O2 sensor to do the corrections and not even bother tuning in OPEN LOOP like we all should before enabling the O2 sensor close loop?

so once again here is the question:
1. Why is the fuel curve of the HONDATA tuned map so jagged and not smooth?
2 Is it ever acceptable or good practice to have ignition overlap anywhere in the ignition map Specially like column 6?

[Hondata]

The ignition tables look fine. The fuel tables look fine. The smoothed tables you've posted look artificially smoothed and I would not consider them better in any way than the tuned tables. Asking the same question over and over will not give you a different answer.

I'll close this thread now unless you have a specific problem or question which you are trying to address.