K24A2 with cam angle issue and high rpm knock

[rowerperk]

I have just installed an 04 K24A2 into my 02 Ep3. Engine is running great but I have a couple concerns, my cam angle seems to dip down below 0 degrees to -5. Also when cam angle command is anything higher then 20 degrees the cam will not go past 20 degrees. Both of these can be seen in the data logs. Other issues are the engine sounds like it develops a knock as rpms go past 5000. This is not being picked up as a knock so not sure if I should be concerned or not. This is a completely stock engine with only 30k on it and has never been opened up for anything as far as I know. I included one datalog with a higher rpm rev and shows no knocks detected. This engine is running on premium fuel and here is the setup.
Stock 5 speed transmission
Stock ep3 exhaust with modified mid pipe
RBB intake manifold with injen short ram intake

I have been studying different tuning maps and the kmanager help trying to learn as much as I can. Just want a safe reliable tune as I drive the car very conservatively with the occasional spirited drive. For now I am using the tsx 04-05 stock kal provided with hondata. It seems to be working fine other then this high rpm knock sound. I have tried other kals and still see the negative cam value.

Other question is should I stick with my stock exhaust? I have the TSX exhaust manifold that i could install and adapt to a high flow cat, but wondering if it will make any difference.

Any help or tips on tuning for a basic reliable setup would be greatly appreciated.

[Spunkster]

Please read about the VTC mechanism on the engine you have at: http://www.hondata.com/tuning_k24a2_tsx_engine.html

If you are unsure about the tuning and there is noise you may want to consider getting this professionally tuned.

[rowerperk]

Thank you, I understand how the vtc works, but is it normal for the cam sensor to read in the negative? As the link you provided states the cam adjusts to 25 degrees and mine will only adjust to 20 degrees. I also know this needs a professional tune but am not going to spend the money on it until I have the car set up the way I like, and any issues like this repaired first. Thank you and I appreciate any help.

[Hondata]

The intake cam should not go negative. Check you cam timing.

[rowerperk]

Thank you, I will look into it, didn't think this should happen. Could this be a timing chain problem, possibly chain tensioner? Any help on diagnosing this problem? I will do my own research in the meantime. I did take the intake cam sensor off my ep3 engine to help fit my wire harness better as the k24 sensor clips in straight up. If the sensor is an issue I can modify wiring to fit k24 sensor.

[rowerperk]

The other question I have why does cam angle command go to 45 degrees in the one spot on the datalog when it is never set to go higher then 30 degrees on the graph?

[Hondata]

The cam will normally fully advance after a cold start as part of a cleaning process.

[rowerperk]

Thank you, good to know about the cam advance on warm up. Will pull valve cover off when I get a chance and check intake cam timing. Has anyone ever heard of an engine with the cam timing off from the factory? As far as I know this engine has never been opened up for anything.

[Hondata]

Put the engine to TDC on cylinder #1, then check the cam sensors on the flywheel end line up with the parting line on the cam cap. The '#1' and '#4' should be horizontal on each sensor wheel. This is better than looking at the timing chain end.

[rowerperk]

Thank you, I checked timing and found both lines are slightly behind the marks on the cam caps, they are both in sync though. I'd say they are about 5 degrees behind, like both cams are running 5 degrees retarded. I did check on the gear side and I got the chain to line up with the black links and both center punch marks are lined up between them.
My next question is what does the ecu use to determine cam angle, the crank position sensor or does it compare intake cam to exhaust cam?
I don't want to start changing timing around until I know for sure, as this engine is running very well. Although I am comparing performance to the stock k20a3 I had in the car before so I'm sure this engine could be low on power and still feel like a huge performance increase.
Any help on what to try next?
Thanks

[Spunkster]

You need to align it proeprly. The marks are there for a reason and if they are not alligned you have found your problem.

[rowerperk]

I still would like to know what the ecu uses to see intake cam angle, if it compares it to the exhaust cam or does it use the crank sensor. Before I advance both cams I would like to know for sure this is going to repair the problem of the intake cam going into the negative on datalogs. Want to understand this a bit more before just playing with the timing.

[Spunkster]

you said it is reading -5 degrees in dataloggina dn you then sais it appears that the cam timing is 5 degrees off. This perfectly explains the problem and fixing the cam timing should fix the problem.

[Hondata]

Ignore the marks on the cam sprockets. Put the engine accurately to TDC on #1 cylinder. Look at the #5 cam cap, and the <1 4> marks on each cam sensor should be perfectly aligned horizontally with the parting line on #5 cam cap.

[rowerperk]

Looks like the cams are aligned, but I am going off the timing mark on the crank pulley, I would like to confirm by making sure number one piston is right at the top. After doing some research I found an old post that you stated intake cam angle is in reference to the exhaust cam angle. If they were out of sync should I not get a P0341 error? If anything I would say both cams are not timed properly to the crank but I do think the cams are timed together. I am including another datalog where I used the same kal and dissabled the VTC solenoid in the VTEC options. It shows the intake cam running at -20 degrees. Did not drive the car like this as this scared me seeing it like this, seemed to run fine at idle though. I still find it hard to beleive timing could be off this far and still be able to run as well as it does. I have also changed out VTC solenoid and cam position sensors from K20A3 engine and did not change any results.
Thank you for your help