Starting Problems, again.

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Mon Aug 30, 2010 9:44 pm

After my recent thread stating my trouble starting I found out that the issue was a bit more serious... turns out my motor was blown. Coolant in the first two cylinders makes it very hard for the engine to start.

Now, the vehicle has a fresh motor and is STILL having troubles starting.

Setup:

Inline Pro Stage 1 Turbo Kit
SC58/65 Turbo Kit
Siemens 900cc Injectors
9:1 Built Motor
Test Pipe
Stock Exhaust
Complete Evap System
Spark Plugs .025' NGK BKR8EIX
Inline Pro Return Fuel System *for my returnless 2007*
Walbro 255 Fuel Pump
Fuel Lab Fuel Pressure Regulator (44psi)

I reside in Newport News, Virginia - air temperatures lately have been in the 80-95 range.

Trouble I am having:
Car will not start. After the car has been sitting for a decent period of time; maybe 30 minutes + when I try to start the car it will crank for anywhere from 4-8 seconds before firing. Once it does, the idle stays very low. I will give the throttle a little blip to rev it up and then smell a lot of fuel.
Usually the ECT's are in the 85-95 range.
After driving the car for quite a while I will stop somewhere to do something or other, then come back to the car. The car will only crank for 1-2 seconds, but once it fires it wants to immediately stall unless I blip the throttle.

Here's where it gets tricky, there is no consistency.

Testing :
When I add fuel to my cranking fuel trim; it gets worse with a much longer cranking time before firing.
I then try to play with ECT Compensation Value's; figure general concept, it takes more fuel to start a colder motor.
If I try to add fuel into colder engine temperatures; the same thing happens, even longer crank with worse smell of fuel. On the other side, if I try to remove fuel at higher temperatures it's almost guaranteed to stall after it does start (which is generally rather quickly).

This weekend, after driving the car rather hard I melted my Heater Hose. We moved the car to my friends house. After sitting for 18hrs we replaced all four coils, replaced the heater hose, and disconnected the purge solenoid. With ECT Temperatures in the mid-80's it fired right up. About 1hour later, immediately fired again! I drove the car then maybe 5 minutes up the road. Went into the store for 2 minutes. Came out to start car and it did fire very quicly, but the rpms dropped like it wanted to stall. Even without touching the throttle, it stayed alive.

Driving home my CEL comes up; Evap System. I look in the Misc Tab and see I can uncheck the box for "Purge/Evap Enable". So I do so... clear the code and call it a day. The next morning; back to the drawing board... she doesn't want to start.

HELP!

I'm attaching my original tune by Inline Pro. A second tune that Inline Pro asked me to use, one that is successful on another car at their shop with the SAME EXACT setup. Finally a third tune done by Matt Shue with Shue Tuning; same result for starting.

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 6:09 am

Further Testing:

Compression Check - Pass. 10psi Difference between highest and lowest number.
Fuel Injector Test - Pass. Pulled injectors from cylinders and placed in a cup, primed pump and let injectors sit for 4hrs. Not a single drop in any cup.
Fuel Pump Test - Questionable. When priming the fuel pump I do receive the 44psi of pressure necessary, but it does fall off at a rather rapid pace. Almost all within a 2 minute time span. Under load on the dyno, the pressure remains correct.

Post by **Spunkster** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:26 am

Follow the helms manual for the error code you got for the EVAP system.

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 10:53 am

The CEL that came on stating Evap System was due to me disconnecting the Purge Solenoid in the Evap System itself.

After clearing that code and plugging the sensor back in the CEL never returned.
As well, I left the sensor unplugged and unchecked the box in Flashpros 'Misc' field labeled 'Purge/EVAP System Enabled". That cleared the CEL never to return as well.

Still no luck with starting issues.

Post by **Spunkster** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:04 pm

put the stock injectors back in and reproduce the same conditions and see if it starts ok. If it does it is just a tuning issue with the large injectors.

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 12:31 pm

Spunkster wrote:put the stock injectors back in and reproduce the same conditions and see if it starts ok. If it does it is just a tuning issue with the large injectors.

I should have access to stock injectors before the week ends; ill give that a shot and let you know!
Thx

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Tue Aug 31, 2010 2:07 pm

I visited a friends shop today who happened to have a set of OEM injectors that I could try. The downside is, the Siemens 900cc Injectors use an entirely different clip. Thus the OEM injectors can not be tested.

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Wed Sep 01, 2010 8:42 pm

There is no consistency.

I attempt to start the car first thing in the morning; maybe high 80's ECT. The car takes a while to start, but does eventually start... I let it idle it's way up to maybe 150 ECT range. I then turn the car off, wait a few moments and attempt to start; the car will fire, but then almost always immediately stall like it's starving for fuel.

Then later that day I'll go for a hard drive; park the car with ECT's in the 190 range. Come back a bit later (maybe an hour), ECT's in the 150 range. Attempt to start and she'll just crank and crank for about 8 seconds before firing. When she does, it smells badly of fuel.

I've had this FlashPro in my car since November 2009, praising how great it is... but the past three months have been an absolute nightmare. The handful of qualified mechanics and number of tuners, many of which are well know in the Hondata world have looked over my car & map; no one can find the issue.

Would someone please help? If you would like, I can provide you with my personal cell phone number to discuss this.

Hondata1 · Post by **Hondata1** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 3:57 pm

I see you have quite a number of changes to the fuel system.

First: Fuel pressure:

- Did the problems start with the installation of the return system and injectors?
- Is Fuel pressure consistent throughout these problems?
- What is the value of the pressure.
- Where is the pressure being read from?
- What have Inline Pro said about these issues?
- Send engine bay photos of your FPR, and return line.

Second: Injectors

You need to start from a known, working hardware base.

Therefore you must install the stock injectors. After this a stock calibration can be installed for testing.

Quite often the pins in an aftermarket injector clip can be removed. If so, they can then be pushed onto the stock injector. They will not be held securely but it will be good enough for a test.

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Thu Sep 02, 2010 8:05 pm

Thanks Hondata1, I really appreciate you trying to help!

While reviewing your questions and gathering answers I did have to visit my car; primarily regarding fuel pressure. I popped my hood, primed my fuel system and the fuel pressure climbed to 42psi. It immediately began falling at a rather rapid pace... down to 32psi in less than 20 seconds. Completely out of fuel pressure in under a minute.

With a handful of automotive shops in the local area and the Walbro 255 being universal, I'm hoping to pick one up this weekend and see how she does!

Hondata1 · Post by **Hondata1** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 8:42 am

The drop in fuel pressure does not overly concern me. Aftermarket return line systems are not as well sealed as a stock returnless. If your fuel pressure returns the maximum within two seconds of turning the ignition key on (priming the fuel system), and stays there while the engine is running or cranking then your time and money is probably better spent elsewhere.

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Fri Sep 03, 2010 9:04 am

Hondata1 wrote:The drop in fuel pressure does not overly concern me. Aftermarket return line systems are not as well sealed as a stock returnless. If your fuel pressure returns the maximum within two seconds of turning the ignition key on (priming the fuel system), and stays there while the engine is running or cranking then your time and money is probably better spent elsewhere.

It is funny you mention this, as not even 10 minutes ago I dropped my car off to an Authorized Hondata Dealer (Custom Car Care in Yorktown, VA) with the shop owner, Brady. He had a Walbro 255 Pump in stock that he was going to sell me, but told me the same thing you did; it's a waste of money.

The car is with him now and I'm hoping this afternoon/evening he'll have some idea of what is wrong.

I went in detail with him of the issues it's having and the tests that I have performed. I'll post up what he discovers.

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Sat Sep 04, 2010 7:25 am

Black Nugget wrote:
Hondata1 wrote:The drop in fuel pressure does not overly concern me. Aftermarket return line systems are not as well sealed as a stock returnless. If your fuel pressure returns the maximum within two seconds of turning the ignition key on (priming the fuel system), and stays there while the engine is running or cranking then your time and money is probably better spent elsewhere.
It is funny you mention this, as not even 10 minutes ago I dropped my car off to an Authorized Hondata Dealer (Custom Car Care in Yorktown, VA) with the shop owner, Brady. He had a Walbro 255 Pump in stock that he was going to sell me, but told me the same thing you did; it's a waste of money.

The car is with him now and I'm hoping this afternoon/evening he'll have some idea of what is wrong.

I went in detail with him of the issues it's having and the tests that I have performed. I'll post up what he discovers.

After leaving the car with Custom Car Care, an authorized Hondata dealer and Honda shop there was no luck. Brady, the owner, head mechanic, and tuner gave me a call to say he couldn't fix the issue. He looked at the map and said nothing looked out of the ordinary. He confirmed that with all the things I tested, there isn't much more to test.
Next week we're going to get together so he can plug in his own wideband to see how it reads when it starts.

I'll let you know.

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Sat Sep 04, 2010 9:46 pm

I know that Hondata will be closed for the holiday, but when you return can someone please verify that with the use of the Hondata FlashPro system we can still utilize a 'Flood Mode' Start? (WOT Start)

Black Nugget · Post by **Black Nugget** » Tue Sep 07, 2010 3:09 pm

After giving a call to Hondata today I was informed that your FlashPro System does not alter the part of the factory ECU regulating the 'Clear Flood Mode' (WOT prior to ignition on, disables injectors).

The only problem is, my FlashPro display is showing 100% Throttle Plate and 100% Throttle Pedal... yet upon cranking I'm still getting injector pulse.

Any idea's?