hesitation issue at idle and while driving... datalog inside

[mo_spec]

I searched and didn’t come up with anything that helped so I here we go.

My setup:
Eg hatch
Stock K24a4
Turbo kit
Kpro in a PRB ecu
1000cc injectors
E85

The cars been running for about a month now with ZERO issues been to the track a few times, drove 70 miles or so at a time, and now all the sudden this started happening on my way home from work.

First I have no check engine lights or error codes in Hondata. And the car idles just fine

If the car is idling and throttle is applied the rpm immediately drops and A/F goes way lean, then slowly starts to rise very boggy. I can get the motor up to higher rpm but it pops and sounds like its missing real bad, when the engine speed drops the car shuts off. When driving it does the same in all gears, At all rpm and throttle percentages. Now here is what I have tried so far,
new plugs,
more gas,
swapped coils
swapped TPS (tps reads correctly in kpro)
swapped CKP sensor
swapped cam angle sensors
checked all grounds
added grounds
tried stock map sensor
IACV duty cycle changes
re-uploaded map
uploaded different maps

then I swapped injectors for another set of 1000s out of a working car(that was on E85). The problem seemed to be fixed but about 200 miles later the same thing began to happen. Seemed like it slowy (over 10 miles or so) got worse as I drove the car.

I logged what was going on at idle, here is a screen shot of it. I can send the data log if anyone wants to see it.


any input is very welcome.

thanks in advance

[mo_spec]

UPDATE......

i found another kpro ecu to put in the car ..... same thing happened with it.
i changed every sensor on the motor again including all vtec and vtc sensors ... same thing

anyone have any ideas? bad harness?

[Hondata]

Has your source of E85 changed from winter to summer blend? Depending where you are, it can change from 70% ethanol to 85% from winter to summer.

What injector dead times are you using?

Have you had the injectors tested?

[mo_spec]

Has your source of E85 changed from winter to summer blend? Depending where you are, it can change from 70% ethanol to 85% from winter to summer.

What injector dead times are you using?

Have you had the injectors tested?

this issue started in the middle of a tank of e85 and im not sure about the change from 70% to 85%

i belive i am using the correct ones for the injectors in the motor. I'll double check.

the injectors i swapped into the car came out of a working car...so i didnt test them. I try and find a local place to have them tested.

[mo_spec]

here is a datalog i took last night...... check out the random timing spike close to the end.

[kb58]

Remove, clean, and reconnected the harness grounds?

[mo_spec]

k here is some crazy shit

so i drained my gas tank to switch from e85 to gas to test some other injectors and this is what i found

e85 straight from the gas station on the left and the e85 from my tank on the right.




i assume this is what was causing the injectors to go clog/go bad in just a few days...

not sure yet whats causing it. the pickup filters were both black as well. i poured the fuel through a coffee filter to catch some of the black stuff, it doesn't seem to me metal well not steel anyway. so i cut up a few pieces of the hose i am using in my fuel system and put them in a glass of e85 to see which one or both is not compatible with ethanol.

[eg6-b18c6]

is it just me or can i see parts where your rpm is climbing but your tps reads 0%? maybe your radiator hose is hitting your tps plug causing a bad connection?

[mo_spec]

is it just me or can i see parts where your rpm is climbing but your tps reads 0%? maybe your radiator hose is hitting your tps plug causing a bad connection?

the hose is close but not touching the tps, even with the motor torquing forward and back i dont think it would touch.

[kb58]

... so i cut up a few pieces of the hose i am using in my fuel system and put them in a glass of e85 to see which one or both is not compatible with ethanol.

That's exactly what it is, the e85 is dissolving your fuel line. That stuff is really nasty, and you guys really need to redo the entire fuel system... all of it, or this is what happens.

[mo_spec]

... so i cut up a few pieces of the hose i am using in my fuel system and put them in a glass of e85 to see which one or both is not compatible with ethanol.

That's exactly what it is, the e85 is dissolving your fuel line. That stuff is really nasty, and you guys really need to redo the entire fuel system... all of it, or this is what happens.

yeah i figured. I redid 75% of the fuel system, its all steel braided and nylon braided line from summit with -an fittings. the only thing i used that was stock was the oem feed line is now my fuel return, and its a steel hard line. I didnt use any oem hose..i suppose I need to check and see if the hose i bought is ethanol compatible.

thanks

[kb58]

... i suppose I need to check and see if the hose i bought is ethanol compatible...

Hah, you already know the answer to that! Having never used E85, I always see strong recommendations to use only Teflon-lines hose. Not sure where to get that.

The same may even be true of race gas... a buddy used to work on the Nissan GTP team and said that within about 10 hrs of running race gas through "normal" fuel line, it came out black...

[mo_spec]

... i suppose I need to check and see if the hose i bought is ethanol compatible...

Hah, you already know the answer to that! Having never used E85, I always see strong recommendations to use only Teflon-lines hose. Not sure where to get that.

The same may even be true of race gas... a buddy used to work on the Nissan GTP team and said that within about 10 hrs of running race gas through "normal" fuel line, it came out black...

i used 3 different hose types on the fuel system so i need to see which one failed. i've used e85 in other cars i own with ZERO modification to fuel system and not seen this before... as well as what i thought to be the same braided lines.. I've heard the horror stories of E85 before never seen one first hand. as far as the teflon line its available at most shops that carry -an stuff. it looks the same just has teflon under the steel braid instead of rubber.

Thanks for the help/input guys i'll update when i have a clean fuel system.

[mo_spec]

K so i left the pieces of hose in e85 for 8 days and saw no chemical breakdown at all, i also looked up the hose i bought to check for compatibility with Ethanol, they were both good for it. in the mean time i sent all 8 of the injectors i had been trying to RC for cleaning. Here are the before and after test sheets from RC.

for the Precision 1000's

and for the RC 1000's


a guy on another forum suggested the following was most likely the cause

"Oh cool! That's from fuel slosh. The first few tanks of E-85 cleans the tank out pretty well (was a problem with my integra at High Plains). So the tank was just relly dirty. It's the same gunk inside the intake manifold/throttle body. Glad you got it figured bud!|"

i cleaned the tank out at the car wash cleaned all the fuel lines, rail and regulator. also replaced the pumps just to be safe.

Everything is back together now and the so far the car is running great....lesson learned: when switching to e85 or using a fuel tank from another car use a small micron filter to catch all the dirt and "slosh" from the tank.

[Hondata]

Good information. Thanks for the follow up posts.