Hondata Sueing Dave Blundell?

[gaskleppie]

However, lets look at the facts quickly without getting into the legal parts:

- Software was posted that had no legitimate purpose other than to download our IP. This was clear and Blundell acknowledged this.

So, big deal. There are a lot of programs on PGMFI to get the software out of an Honda ECU. Why bother if there is posted another new one? Just because it downloads a part of your software as well?

- Blundell was contacted about the software, but did not do anything about it. He had ample opportunity - there were other posts by him on the same forum in the 48 hour timer period. Again, Blundell has acknowledged this time period and his lack of response.

So, big deal. Since it was posted, the software was there from that moment. Even when Dave had removed it earlier, the damage was done. How fast had Dave to act to keep you guys happy? Even IF he had removed it right away, the damage was done! You are sueing him just because Dave was not fast enough. Thats stupid!

It's pretty clear that Blundell's reponse to our request was not reasonsble. Even worse, Blundell suggested this would happen again and he would not do anything in the future either. Also Blundell has maintained an anti-Hondata approach for some time. These facts have more weight in whole than taken singularly.

Of course it can happen again! The software is downloaded by lots of people. So they can post it on lots of other forums.

We wanted to try and prevent the same thing happening again. We negotated for over 6 months in good faith, with requests that were reasonable and easy to implement. Blundell abandoned the negotiation process, and now here we are. No fun for any of us.

Dave is telling a complete other story. Who can we trust???



And another thing.
There are a few ways to get software out of an K-pro ECU. So why dont you sew all the chip-readers makers? Just remove the chip out of your ecu and read it!
This lawsuit is getting your self down, not the another harmless guy.

[rsmith2786]

Basically it looks like Hondata doesn't have much of a chance of winning much but has lost more than a few customers and a lot of respect in the Honda community. After seeing their sales numbers from last year i doubt their recent actions will have much of an effect on them. Hondata customers aren't only found on internet forums. The lawsuit was a stupid move on Hondata's part but life goes on.

[cardinal811]

Any update on what all is going on..........SEEMS all the info went to a SCREECHIN HAULT.

Whats up now with the DEBATE/Actions

[Hondata]

Any update on what all is going on..........SEEMS all the info went to a SCREECHIN HAULT.

Well, remember that this started in May last year, and it took until October this year to get this far, so the process is not a speedy one.

You still haven't answered the question why you and your company find it perfectly ok to steal code from Honda without any agreement from Honda or paying for using the code

You are incorrect. We have a very good business relationship with Honda. You need to be extremely careful and sure of your facts before you start publicly accusing others of theft.

Even when Dave had removed it earlier, the damage was done. How fast had Dave to act to keep you guys happy?

Mr Blundell removed nothing. He refused to remove the software after he was advised it was illegal and damaging to Hondata.

an example comes to mind:
recently, one of our local news organizations aired a special about "lock bumping." this is the practice of making a sawtooth key and inserting it in a lock and pounding it to release the lock. theives use this method for burglary without damaging the lock.

Lets clarify things and expand on your metaphor. Your scenario should read something like this:

The local TV station airs a broadcast giving your specific door electronic combination and address of your house. Anyone watching this broadcast can at any time in the future enter your house and steal your property. You phone the station and inform them that this is a breach of your privacy. The station does nothing and continues to rerun the broadcast.

Let me propose a scenario that describes a similar but more accurate situation.

- Someone posts to public internet forums your bank account details and access password. This bank account has your life's savings.
- Many people read and take note of these details.
- The people that read these details can, at any time in the future access your bank account and withdraw your money.
- You ask the forum owner to remove this information. The forum owner refuses to do so, perfectly aware that:
- people are reading this information and
- this information is damaging
- this information violates the forum rules
- You personally track down the person that made the original post and have them remove it. In the mean time many more people have downloaded this information.
- The forum owner says that there will be more posts of this kind and there is nothing you can do about it.

This scenario is somewhat easier on you than what has happened to Hondata. You can change your account password and you can move your life's savings to another bank account. We do not have that luxury. The software posted can allow anyone, anytime in the future to steal years worth of our R&D. This is our life's savings and our future earnings. We will fight to protect it as you would fight to protect yours.

As the owner of PGMFI has demonstrated an inability and unwillingness to respect our intellectual property we ask for the ability to remove any software that is a breach of our IP.

[ergonomic]

let's modify this so that it is a little more pertinent to the situation:

- Someone posts to public internet forums your bank account details and access password. This bank account contains your life's savings in the form of billions of coupons, valued at 1/20 of a cent each. the only way to withdraw this savings from your account is to print off each coupon in groups of 20.
- Many people read and take note of these details and find the necessary action to take advantage of the information overwhelming and not worth the trouble.
- The people that read these details can, at any time in the future access your bank account and withdraw your coupons at their own expense of both time and money.
- You ask the forum owner to remove this information. The forum owner refuses to do so, perfectly aware that:
- people are reading this information and not using it.
- this information is damaging IF they actually put their own development time and money into it.
- this information violates the forum rules
- You personally track down the person that made the original post and have them remove it. In the mean time many more people have downloaded this information and done nothing with it but have the random file clogging up their hard drive.
- The forum owner says that there will be more posts of this kind and there is nothing you need to do about it.

this makes more sense. it's not like the software allowed anyone who looked at it to start selling k-pro ECU code. there would have been a significant amount of work necessary to not only download the code, but to make it useful to anyone else that didn't have the necessary hardware/software. there don't appear to be any pirated versions selling anywhere. any k-pro ECU on ebay is through a licensed hondata dealer. how exactly do you justify claiming damages?

As the owner of PGMFI has demonstrated an inability and unwillingness to respect our intellectual property we ask for the ability to remove any software that is a breach of our IP.

no, you asked for the ability to delete ANYTHING negative that ANYONE posts about hondata. you asked for unrestricted control of a forum that you didn't own. yo udidn't ask for the ability to troll the forums and delete files that specifically qualify as your IP. you asked for control, carte blanche.

i don't blame blundar for not agreeing to those terms. i don't think anyone else would either.

[JaredKaragen]

It sounds like Hondata's stance on the IP is:

"We figured out how to do it first, so we want the ability to stop anyone who is doing it in a similar fashion".

It is the misuse or distribution of your IP that is illegal;

It's illegal to download a program off [lets say microsoft word] off the internet and use it. Agreed.

But is is not illegal to download that program and use it if you own it to begin with correct? Reason for downloading lets say your disc has a crack in it.

It is the *misuse* of the data that is illegal..... Hondata is ignoring that aspect of the digital rights act. Remember, they own the data, and I would like to see someone who purchases a kpro ecu from an end user, and plugs it into his car to download the rom... how is he breaking your rules? He never went through the processes of your agreements. (Terms of use, user agreements, etc). He just owns a peice of property that was someone's else's brainchild. Look at how many people "pimp" their windows installation with programs downloaded from the net; or how people would hexedit the start menu text back in the days of win98....

people have been modifying and using software in many ways for years; it opens worlds for game expansion packs; new program additions/interfaces, etc.

Remember: If you have that kpro ECU in your car, and use that downloader to download the code on the ECU; that is called a "Legal backup" by todays standards.... just as if I were to backup my OEM rom off the ecu to upload a new ROM.

Video game writers and console companys have fought tooth and neck; just as you are; and I really think your reasoning behind controlling PGMFI.org is behind cutting anyone off that is starting to do anything that is similar to the way you do it; even though they figured it out on their own. but that is strictly opinion.

How many other people do you see using your methods to chip a K series ECU? Where is this "impact" or competation to your product and company?

[mar778c]

no, you asked for the ability to delete ANYTHING negative that ANYONE posts about hondata. you asked for unrestricted control of a forum that you didn't own. yo udidn't ask for the ability to troll the forums and delete files that specifically qualify as your IP. you asked for control, carte blanche.

i don't blame blundar for not agreeing to those terms. i don't think anyone else would either.

X2 agreed.

This suit is purely a move to retard future DIY competition. Protect IP is the "Casus belli". The flimsiness of this issue is "it took 48 hrs" for the offending software to be removed. On the internet I frequent, it takes less than 1 min to download a 100 mb.

To me, it sounds like you need more robust protection of your hardware and software, er "IP".

[JaredKaragen]

Please, don't take the temr You personally, it is referencing Hondata.

it's not illegal to posess a crack for software/hardware; infact, look at cell phone companies that do anything they can to force people to pay for their ringtones, games, etc.

I understand the stance when it comes to the TV station and broadcasting: But being ethical is one thing; But is it illegal? You failed to point that part out. Ethics are opinions expressed by people on an individual basis. You are forcing people to live by your ethics; you sound american enough to me; sue happy, and quick to pass judgement.

Any person who creates a peice of hardware or software and sells it; knowingly knows that people have the ability to disassemble or reverse engineer the product. Just like everyone else; you are taking the risk of being ripped off.

Look at motherboard manufacturers and BIOS for instance; A better part of the PC community likes to overclock and modify their computers to the max. Some modifications require pulling the BIOS, and modifying it (enabling some options) or completely changing it to perform the desired action. Often, a manufacturer BIOS uploader will reject any BIOS image that is not released by the company, or is for a different model of board; mostly to protect the end user.

Solution: Write a simple BIOS uploader that bypasses these steps.
same concept; different field.

The gross distribution of your IP in such a manner as you described; as to use the TV station to report info on your home, etc; would be like the writer of the program posting the program, along with K-pro; a full disassembly of the code with definitions and help files, and a complete schematic and disassembly of your interface board; Please use a situation that applies.


How is someone else's software illegal because they found their own way to use your equipment? Can I see his agreement to your hardware terms of use? And for that matter, proof of the agreement that the people who downloaded it? [Thus making their actions illegal?]

Intellectual Property is a very loosly defined term by todays standards;
If Hondata went to court saying "These guys did not delete a program that can download [the IP u speak of] from their [owned] ECU. With this program people have the 'potential' [ability] to steal our code [IP]."

The general response is: Potential [or the ability to do such] is always there for anything you can speak of- even in the quantum mechanics world there is potential, or the ability for ANYTHING to happen. ****Just cause it is easier for them to excersize that potential[ability], you are suing to try and take what is not yours? You feel it is unfair?

Granted and opinion understood: David Blundell may have posted in that 48 hour period;
but I would like to see an enforced law that he is bound under that forces him to do your will, with priority over all else? Did it ever occour that he has a life aside from managing a NON-PROFIT site? Could he have forgotten the couple times he was at his pc [in that period of time]? To ignore these simple things are like driving a car at 100mph down the railroad tracks with a blindfold on. Reckless and with Disregard. [makes Hondata sound 100% american alright]

[Gen2ITR]

Ok so I just found out about this.
I am fairly new to tuning but have been using Hondata for a while.

Code is written just like writing a book. You can read the book whenever you want, take notes, analize the writting, and break down the meaning of the words.
You cannot re-write the words and claim them as your own (plagerizm<sp>).

You can write your own words in conjuction with the words already written (Hondata adding to Honda's orig code).

By posting the methods used to decipher the code, it was basically plagerizing Hondatas work.

Freeware is usually free because they blatantly stole their code from other sources. The time and money involved with developing a program would bankrupt a company if they offerd it free of charge.

For what its worth:
I support Hondata and their efforts to protect their hard work.

[JaredKaragen]

Code is written just like writing a book. You can read the book whenever you want, take notes, analize the writting, and break down the meaning of the words.
You cannot re-write the words and claim them as your own (plagerizm<sp>).

Well said.

You can write your own words in conjuction with the words already written (Hondata adding to Honda's orig code).

Again, well put.

By posting the methods used to decipher the code, it was basically plagerizing Hondatas work.

Wrongly stated: This lawsuit is over the potential to download the code; Not what the code is and does.

So far, nothing has surfaced as a result of this... and this is how long after the downloader was posted?

Freeware is usually free because they blatantly stole their code from other sources. The time and money involved with developing a program would bankrupt a company if they offerd it free of charge.

Nope; You mean to tell me that freeware cd burning software is someone else's work stolen? Not even, it's because some people out there (Example: Linux gurus) believe that software should be free, and thus don't charge for it. This program could be sold; but for whatever reason, they chose not to.

Remember; Hondata is suing someone because of the potential that a program has. Not for what it HAS done, or any ouotcome related to the USE of it. Hondata lacks severe evidence in this field; they only have the statement of the potential for losses because of this program.

That would be like hearing a homeless guy say "I could break into that house across the street, and I could have a full stomach right now." Then, having him sentanced to a prison sentance for having the "potential to break-in". If that were the case, the whole country should be a prison.

Remember: The k-pro downloader is not "pirated", it is not a virus, it is not Hondata's creation. It is a freeware peice of software that has a purpose. Now; How the end-user applies it is his doings; to no fault of the creator.

It's like taking the gun salesman to prison for selling the shooter his gun.

The "Goal" that is preceived from what is read in their offical statements:

Hondata is focused on controlling compitition to cut future sales losses; and this is the best way to get the biggest competation out of the way.

But that is how I see it on paper; and by actions of Hondata.

[cardinal811]

IT's went from real facts to alot of "How about this story, can you relate?" Come on people stop adding your $0.02 worth of story telling and LET HONDATA OR DAVID post whats all going on. Hondata you can delete all the JIBBER JABBER but not the facts if ya want on my THREAD. But not the facts.

[Castor Troy]

As an avid Honda engine tuning enthusiast, I would like to say to the public this:

What future development and improvment does Honda engine tuning have if Hondata has control over the Honda engine tuning enthusiasts communication hub? A very limited one, in my opinion. A non-profit organization does not have a destructive motivational force like... monetary profit.

It is very frustrating to see the feces sling fest in such respected and admirable entities, as I had respect and admiration for both of them. Now, I don't admire or respect these actions that Hondata has executed. What's left? An engine management system for my upcoming project? Why get it from a company that would inflict such an unpleasant, troublesome, and trying situation upon an individual that is just another avid Honda engine tuning enthusiast, like me? He is more enabled and skilled in the craft than I, and that's why I admire him. I respect him because he is a respectable person who has tried to defuse this predicament.

Mr. Hondata, go back to Dave's post in this thread that describes three possible outcomes and CHOOSE the first one. Please stop letting the lawyers or Mr. Benjamin in that pretty green money influence your noggen during this situation.

I know you don't like to hear this implication, but lemmy ask ya: Do you think that I will advocate or purchase a product of Hondata in the future? Or do you think that I will persue predicaments, with as much of a drive as you have displayed with Mr. Blundar, that demote a Hondata product?

-Brad

[cardinal811]

WELL PUT Brad


Jeremy Cardinal

[Hondata]

Folks, I don't think there is any point now in keeping this thread open now. We've put our side of the story across.

We are taking action against an individual who refused to remove software after being advised that:
- It was a violation of Hondata's terms of use of its software
- Its only purpose was to facilitate the theft of Hondata's intellectual property

As stated earlier, we're only interested in clearing up the facts, which has been done. Also stated earlier, posts which ignore the facts and attempt to justify piracy/theft will be removed.

There's distortion of the facts from David Blundel:
- David implies that he was only slow in removing the software. In fact he never did remove the software (the original poster did).
- David said he did not have sufficient time to remove the software. In fact during the period between being informed about the software and it being removed he made numerous posts to the same forum.
- David claimed that he tried to negotiate with us be failed. In fact, we negotiated in good faith for almost a year before David abruptly informed us that the site was suddenly sold to a Russian.
- David claimed the site was sold and that he had no part of the running any more. In fact he continued to function as a site administrator, and the ownership of the site was silently handed back to David some time later.
- David claims that the final resolution was reached after the lawsuit was filed. In fact the terms of the final settlement were almost identical to those which Hondata and David had worked out before the lawsuit was filed. In effect the campaign by David to fight the lawsuit did nothing apart from spend donated money on lawyers.

What sort of picture does this paint?