As the title says, I'd love some feedback!
This data log from from a rainy night here in Sydney Australia so there is a bit of traction control interfering.
Mods to my car are :
K&N panel filter
Intake resonator delete
Japspeed headers
Fujitsubo catback
Only ever use 98ron fuel so knock control has been disabled.
I've road tuned this myself over a few months after a lot of reading and trial and error. I believe it is a relatively safe tune and more power could be unlocked but I am happy with the performance. If you see any areas of concern then please let me know so I can learn.
Once the rain stops and we get some dry roads again, I'll provide another data log with some long uphill pulls in 3rd and 4th gear.
Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
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Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
Overall it's not too bad. The only real issue I see is you're a little lean in the midrange on your wide open throttle (WOT) pulls. It comes back inline up top, but the midrange jumps up in the 14s for AFR which is a little lean.
How did you determine your cam angle mapping for WOT?
It doesn't appear that you have, but did you go in and tune each cam angle one by one by locking the VTC on one cam angle at a time?
There are a few other little drivability things I would recommend, such as the VTC following cam tables on decel, but that's easy to do at any point.
How did you determine your cam angle mapping for WOT?
It doesn't appear that you have, but did you go in and tune each cam angle one by one by locking the VTC on one cam angle at a time?
There are a few other little drivability things I would recommend, such as the VTC following cam tables on decel, but that's easy to do at any point.
Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
Thanks for you help.
No I didn't lock the VTC and do each table like I should have. I used a base map which I thought was good enough for me to get around that but I can see I will have to go through and do it properly now.
I was basically tuning very slowly in stages. First only driving the car with light throttle cruising, looking at the datalog, making changes, then repeat adding more and load and revs. All the time, keeping my eye on AFR and knocks. I'm learning as I go so I was making changes based on what felt strong. Sometimes I would make a change and notice the car felt a bit more sluggish so I went back a step and started again.
What effect will changing the VTC following cam on decel make to drivability?
No I didn't lock the VTC and do each table like I should have. I used a base map which I thought was good enough for me to get around that but I can see I will have to go through and do it properly now.
I was basically tuning very slowly in stages. First only driving the car with light throttle cruising, looking at the datalog, making changes, then repeat adding more and load and revs. All the time, keeping my eye on AFR and knocks. I'm learning as I go so I was making changes based on what felt strong. Sometimes I would make a change and notice the car felt a bit more sluggish so I went back a step and started again.
What effect will changing the VTC following cam on decel make to drivability?
Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
I see. Yeah starting on the 0* cam angle and fine tuning that really lays the groundwork for the rest of the cam angles. When you lock it on the 0* cam angle, there are less moving parts and tables to look at while you're tuning. With it having a "blended" cam angle map as I call it as in yours, you're chasing so many tables that it's hard to fine tine each area. That and your sample data might be very low too, again with it locked on one cam angle, all the data is on one table so you're getting all the data focused on the 0* cam angle. Then once you feel comfortable with the 0* cam fuel tables, you copy and paste the low cam and high cam fuel tables from the 0* table into the next cam angle, which on yours was 10*. Then you have have a good start to tuning the 10* cam tables because they will be very similar to the 0*. Then you keep going, once you have the 10* table as you want it, copy and paste them into the 20* cam angle and then tune that. You will find starting on the 0* cam will allow you to focus on one thing at a time.
When you have time, open a datalog you have and open up the display to show cam angle and cam angle commanded. You will see that every time you let off the gas, your cam angle slams to 0*, then opens back up to anything from 0-45* again right away. That constant slamming shut and then rotating again puts a lot of strain on the timing chain and tensioner. When you have it set to follow decel, it will follow the cam rotation in your cam angle mapping. Granted in yours, columns 1-2 are set to 0* so it will do that on part throttle, but on WOT it will stay rotated as you have it outlined in the high cam tables. Here is a little video that explains how the VTC works and shows you what happens as the cam rotates, so you can visualize it slamming to zero and then rotating right away https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtRlQrAc5IY&t=75s. Having it not shut to 0* all the time will make it drive a little smoother, and overall make things a lot easier on the timing components. I would go in and modify your low cam tables so that columns 1 and 2 aren't set to 0, but I understand you're going in small steps so take your time.
But yeah, I would honestly say to go in and set the cam tables to zero and fine tune them. Don't panic if you see rich or lean fuel trims while driving at part throttle. Gather a datalog of 20 minute or so driving on the 0* cam angle with just part throttle driving and then sit down and analyze it. Also make sure that the cells have more than 50 samples to trust the data. The more average data you have the better you can rely on the data. A cell with only 8 samples isn't really reliable, you want cells to have 100s or thousands of data samples per cell. If you're not sure how to tell how many samples are in each cell, open your fuel tables and hover over a cell with the cursor, it will tell you average AFR and data samples collected. You're definitely on the right track, for doing it yourself and learning on the fly you're doing fine. I really think going in and starting with the 0* cam angle will really help built that base layer for moving forward.
When you have time, open a datalog you have and open up the display to show cam angle and cam angle commanded. You will see that every time you let off the gas, your cam angle slams to 0*, then opens back up to anything from 0-45* again right away. That constant slamming shut and then rotating again puts a lot of strain on the timing chain and tensioner. When you have it set to follow decel, it will follow the cam rotation in your cam angle mapping. Granted in yours, columns 1-2 are set to 0* so it will do that on part throttle, but on WOT it will stay rotated as you have it outlined in the high cam tables. Here is a little video that explains how the VTC works and shows you what happens as the cam rotates, so you can visualize it slamming to zero and then rotating right away https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OtRlQrAc5IY&t=75s. Having it not shut to 0* all the time will make it drive a little smoother, and overall make things a lot easier on the timing components. I would go in and modify your low cam tables so that columns 1 and 2 aren't set to 0, but I understand you're going in small steps so take your time.
But yeah, I would honestly say to go in and set the cam tables to zero and fine tune them. Don't panic if you see rich or lean fuel trims while driving at part throttle. Gather a datalog of 20 minute or so driving on the 0* cam angle with just part throttle driving and then sit down and analyze it. Also make sure that the cells have more than 50 samples to trust the data. The more average data you have the better you can rely on the data. A cell with only 8 samples isn't really reliable, you want cells to have 100s or thousands of data samples per cell. If you're not sure how to tell how many samples are in each cell, open your fuel tables and hover over a cell with the cursor, it will tell you average AFR and data samples collected. You're definitely on the right track, for doing it yourself and learning on the fly you're doing fine. I really think going in and starting with the 0* cam angle will really help built that base layer for moving forward.
Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
Thanks again for the detailed reply! I really appreciate you sharing your knowledge.
I took what you told me and applied it to my tune. I didn't go through and and start again completely because I was satisfied with the majority of cells in my fuel tables. So I locked the VTC at each cam angle and did a 10 min datalog and touch up those areas of the fuel tables. and removed a little bit of ignition to eliminate some low RPM knock. Once I put them all back together, I did another datalog and can see how the AFR's transition much smoother between cam angles now. I also set VTC to follow cam angles on decel like you suggested.
The end result is that the car feels a lot more punchy and responsive throughout the whole rev range. The idle also stabilises near instantly when coming to a stop now.
Thanks for you help.
Here are the changes I've made if you are interested.
I took what you told me and applied it to my tune. I didn't go through and and start again completely because I was satisfied with the majority of cells in my fuel tables. So I locked the VTC at each cam angle and did a 10 min datalog and touch up those areas of the fuel tables. and removed a little bit of ignition to eliminate some low RPM knock. Once I put them all back together, I did another datalog and can see how the AFR's transition much smoother between cam angles now. I also set VTC to follow cam angles on decel like you suggested.
The end result is that the car feels a lot more punchy and responsive throughout the whole rev range. The idle also stabilises near instantly when coming to a stop now.
Thanks for you help.
Here are the changes I've made if you are interested.
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Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
It's certainly acceptable in looking at this datalog. Now I would look into cam angle mapping for the high cam and I think you will find some power there. You will want to go in and make sure you tune the WOT fueling for each cam angle by making third gear pulls from 2500-8500. Once you get the fuel tuned, you can go in and look over the data to find how to set up the cam angle mapping. Where it wants more fuel, that means you're making more power. So you use that data to build the high cam angle mapping. If you're happy with how it feels then don't worry about it. Just saying with your combination, you should be able to get some more midrange out of it and perhaps some top end. The factory airbox might be a restriction to too much more power, but it would be worth it to go in and tune he high cam tables one by one so you can make that determination.
The VTC following cam angle map looks a lot nicer watching the cam angle follow the commanded angle, so that's good. I see you sent in and add the 5* of rotation in columns 1-2, that works good. I would go in though and make columns 1-4, from 550rpm to 1000rpm, and set them to 0*. Right now it's commanding 7* of cam angle at idle which is unnecessary. Generally having the cam angle at 0* at idle is ideal and takes the pressure off the VTC system at least at idle. With it commanding rotation at idle, you're just sitting there with the cam rotated slightly and the oil pressure is controlling that rotation. I can go in and make that adjustment for you if you'd like, so you can see what I mean, then make your decision. Just let me know. You also might benefit from the idle being moved up to 850 at operating temp, but again, it's all up to you of course.
Other than those little things you're doing fine. I'm glad those little tips helps out. The one thing that is hurting your overall performance is your intake air temperatures. How hot was the ambient temperature for this datalog? The intake temps hover around 100* f and up to 122* f at idle. That is the main downside to the stock airbox, it gets heatsoaked fairly easy. Do you have plans to add a CAI or anything in the future?
The VTC following cam angle map looks a lot nicer watching the cam angle follow the commanded angle, so that's good. I see you sent in and add the 5* of rotation in columns 1-2, that works good. I would go in though and make columns 1-4, from 550rpm to 1000rpm, and set them to 0*. Right now it's commanding 7* of cam angle at idle which is unnecessary. Generally having the cam angle at 0* at idle is ideal and takes the pressure off the VTC system at least at idle. With it commanding rotation at idle, you're just sitting there with the cam rotated slightly and the oil pressure is controlling that rotation. I can go in and make that adjustment for you if you'd like, so you can see what I mean, then make your decision. Just let me know. You also might benefit from the idle being moved up to 850 at operating temp, but again, it's all up to you of course.
Other than those little things you're doing fine. I'm glad those little tips helps out. The one thing that is hurting your overall performance is your intake air temperatures. How hot was the ambient temperature for this datalog? The intake temps hover around 100* f and up to 122* f at idle. That is the main downside to the stock airbox, it gets heatsoaked fairly easy. Do you have plans to add a CAI or anything in the future?
Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
I always wondered how to determine which cam angle provides the most power without the use of a dyno and now that makes senses. We've had nothing but rain here lately so I can't do any WOT runs until it dries up. The power delivery feels great so I will be pleasantly surprised if there is more in it! I'm a tech at VW, so to drive golf R's and GTI's all day and then jump into the type R and still be impressed with the power tells me I'm on the right path.
Yes the stock air box does get heat soak but I have no plans to change the intake. The intake temps come down once I'm moving and the throttle plate is open. I drive with the Hondata app display on my dash so I monitor this constantly. sitting in traffic in summer the IAT will climb to 40 to 50 celcius. but once moving it drops and stays about 5 to 8 degrees celcius above ambient temperature. I would like to experiment with some gold wrap insulation covering the air box and see what difference it makes.
I've started tidying up/smoothing my ignition maps so I will keep you posted once that's complete.
Thanks again for your help.
PS. I read in another post that you have virtual dyno software. What would you need to provide a HP estimate for my car?
Yes the stock air box does get heat soak but I have no plans to change the intake. The intake temps come down once I'm moving and the throttle plate is open. I drive with the Hondata app display on my dash so I monitor this constantly. sitting in traffic in summer the IAT will climb to 40 to 50 celcius. but once moving it drops and stays about 5 to 8 degrees celcius above ambient temperature. I would like to experiment with some gold wrap insulation covering the air box and see what difference it makes.
I've started tidying up/smoothing my ignition maps so I will keep you posted once that's complete.
Thanks again for your help.
PS. I read in another post that you have virtual dyno software. What would you need to provide a HP estimate for my car?
Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
Yeah the fuel tables are really the only way you can find the most power without a dyno. Without a dyno, you can only hope to get 90% of the max power potential, well granted the dyno tuner is being thorough. The last tune I had compared on a dyno was from an unfinished 9th gen, and the dyno tune only picked up 7hp more that mine. Had I finished the prep tune, it would hav been closer, but still not bad. So if peak power is your only goal, the dyno is the way to go with a high level tuner. The nice thing about street tuning is you're tuning it for part throttle which is the bulk of your driving. So there is a tradeoff, you just have to determine your goals. But with the fuel tables, that's why you need to tune all cam angles so you can then evaluate the tables to find where it wants the most fuel. More fuel goes with more air, which in theory means more power.
It might never feel like a newer GTi and Golf R, but they're still a lot of fun and can surprise some people. It's almost more fun surprising people that write you off than it is beating someone you should beat. But yeah, If I remember right on your cam angle map, I think you can find a lot of midrange for WOT and also find your optimal vtec rpm too. That is again the perk of tuning all fuel tables and moving vtec up and down to find that range. It's not an exact science, but for me, I like to give guys a final calibration that is suited to their car, not a one size fits all calibration by saying "well it worked on this one guys car so your car should like it".
The stock airbox is pretty good anyways. You guys have a resonator box on your cars right, like a silencer box behind the bumper for the intake? If you remove that, it might pick up some power too. The resonator box is a pretty big restriction of air coming in and it sounds better without it. Then you can try to build a fresh air scoop or something too if you're into nerding out a bit.
The Virtual Dyno software doesn't have a setup for FN2s, but we might be able to use a modified 8th gen Civic Si profile and see if we can make it work. For data, you need to find the absolutely flattest and smoothest road you can and make a few third gear WOT pulls on that road. If the road is downhill/uphill, wavy, bumpy, or rough in general, it can skew the data really bad. When you find the right stretch of road, it's pretty accurate for the most part. Especially if you're comparing runs. I had one guy with a road so flat you could literally see changes in cam angle mapping and he verified the feel from in the car. It's just really tough to find the right stretch of road. But we can try to figure out a way to test it in Virtual Dyno. I would need the weight of the car, which we can google, and your tire size to get the overall diameter to input those into Virtual Dyno.
It might never feel like a newer GTi and Golf R, but they're still a lot of fun and can surprise some people. It's almost more fun surprising people that write you off than it is beating someone you should beat. But yeah, If I remember right on your cam angle map, I think you can find a lot of midrange for WOT and also find your optimal vtec rpm too. That is again the perk of tuning all fuel tables and moving vtec up and down to find that range. It's not an exact science, but for me, I like to give guys a final calibration that is suited to their car, not a one size fits all calibration by saying "well it worked on this one guys car so your car should like it".
The stock airbox is pretty good anyways. You guys have a resonator box on your cars right, like a silencer box behind the bumper for the intake? If you remove that, it might pick up some power too. The resonator box is a pretty big restriction of air coming in and it sounds better without it. Then you can try to build a fresh air scoop or something too if you're into nerding out a bit.
The Virtual Dyno software doesn't have a setup for FN2s, but we might be able to use a modified 8th gen Civic Si profile and see if we can make it work. For data, you need to find the absolutely flattest and smoothest road you can and make a few third gear WOT pulls on that road. If the road is downhill/uphill, wavy, bumpy, or rough in general, it can skew the data really bad. When you find the right stretch of road, it's pretty accurate for the most part. Especially if you're comparing runs. I had one guy with a road so flat you could literally see changes in cam angle mapping and he verified the feel from in the car. It's just really tough to find the right stretch of road. But we can try to figure out a way to test it in Virtual Dyno. I would need the weight of the car, which we can google, and your tire size to get the overall diameter to input those into Virtual Dyno.
Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
I'm not chasing high numbers. I'm more interested in midrange performance and already the car has really come alive between 4000 - 7000rpm. The power delivery "feels" more like a turbocharged car now over the stock tune. But my curiosity has got me wondering what the ball park HP figure might be.
The stock airbox with a K&N filter seems ok. I removed the intake resonator months ago and went full nerd relocating the horn and making a cold air scoop that picks up air behind the lower grill. It actually made the vtec crossover noise quieter from in the cabin but its loud as hell from outside when the car is coming towards you.
I'll be on the lookout for a nice flat road but I don't like my chances. Sydney roads are full of hills, bends and speed camera's. But I might be able to find something on the freeway out of Sydney.
The stock airbox with a K&N filter seems ok. I removed the intake resonator months ago and went full nerd relocating the horn and making a cold air scoop that picks up air behind the lower grill. It actually made the vtec crossover noise quieter from in the cabin but its loud as hell from outside when the car is coming towards you.
I'll be on the lookout for a nice flat road but I don't like my chances. Sydney roads are full of hills, bends and speed camera's. But I might be able to find something on the freeway out of Sydney.
Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
Sounds good. You can only get so much out of them before you start risking knock in normal driving conditions anyways. If I remember right on your calibration, I would say you're missing maybe 10-15* of cam rotation in the midrange that would really pick up there in that 4000-7000 range you talk about. Since you have a pretty nice header in there, that will free up a lot of flow and give you the ability to run more cam angle in the midrange.
Yeah see what you can find for a fairly flat road. Or get the best you can and post the datalog, we can try whatever you can get, you just have to keep in mind uphill or downhill makes a difference the equation for horsepower calculation.
Yeah see what you can find for a fairly flat road. Or get the best you can and post the datalog, we can try whatever you can get, you just have to keep in mind uphill or downhill makes a difference the equation for horsepower calculation.
Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
Well I took advantage of some dry weather and was able to do WOT pulls in each cam position and further adjusted the fuelling. I used that data to help find the best VTC angles like you mentioned. The results feel great! Strong and linear in each cam profile now.
I know I can dial it in further with some more time but I'm very happy so far.
I know I can dial it in further with some more time but I'm very happy so far.
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Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
Yeah overall it looks pretty solid man. As long as it feels solid behind the wheel that's all that matters. But it looks like it's pulling nicely and the cam angles are following nice and smooth. No more slapping to 0 all the time which is nice.
Keep at it, you're doing good.
Keep at it, you're doing good.
Re: Please review my calibration for FN2 type R and give feedback.
Man you know your stuff guys I'm such a noob watching in awe lol