Hey all,
Not sure if this is a normal inquiry, but I was hoping I would be able to find someone to work with me on learning the FlashPro program.
I have a 2009 Honda Civic Si, completely stock, and I am not the type to just download someone else's work. Trust issues lol. So, is anyone willing to help me understand how to work this?
I do have a lot of parts that have been sitting for a few years, unfortunately, and now that I am back state side, it hurts me to see the boxes sitting in my house.
For any Vets out there, I'll bring crayons, but the blue ones are mine.
Semper Fi!
2009 FA5
Re: 2009 FA5
In stock form, the main thing you want to focus on learning is how to scale the MAF sensor. Since you're stock, generally you will start with a MAF calibration which learning how to scale the MAF would give you the ability to get your part throttle fuel trims in line quickly.
Then I would look into hybrid calibrations and how they work. That gives you the best product for stock form, allowing you to scale the MAF and use the MAP sensor for wide open throttle (WOT) fuel tuning. This will make getting the part throttle trims in good shape easy, then fine tune the WOT fueling using the fuel tables directly. Once you find some good data sources, you will probably catch on easy. Just be sure to take everything you find with a grain of salt, including anything I say. Be sure to verify stuff from multiple sources, there is a lot of bad info running around in forums.
Depending on the octane fuel you run, knock may become something you will find in your datalogs. Adjusting the ignition for knock is fairly straightforward, but understanding temperature compensations and intake temps will help you make decisions on that stuff.
Then I would look into hybrid calibrations and how they work. That gives you the best product for stock form, allowing you to scale the MAF and use the MAP sensor for wide open throttle (WOT) fuel tuning. This will make getting the part throttle trims in good shape easy, then fine tune the WOT fueling using the fuel tables directly. Once you find some good data sources, you will probably catch on easy. Just be sure to take everything you find with a grain of salt, including anything I say. Be sure to verify stuff from multiple sources, there is a lot of bad info running around in forums.
Depending on the octane fuel you run, knock may become something you will find in your datalogs. Adjusting the ignition for knock is fairly straightforward, but understanding temperature compensations and intake temps will help you make decisions on that stuff.
Re: 2009 FA5
EFICU, I was actually reading your responses and hoping to get your attention lol since I am a new member, I can privately message you so this was perfect!
Ok, I'm going to start doing a lot of research on MAF and WOT fuel tuning.
As far as octane, I never run anything under 93, that kinda broke me in college lol
EFICU, I am very grateful for your advice, and your time!
Ok, I'm going to start doing a lot of research on MAF and WOT fuel tuning.
As far as octane, I never run anything under 93, that kinda broke me in college lol
EFICU, I am very grateful for your advice, and your time!
Re: 2009 FA5
Yeah when you said you had trust issues with strangers and downloading other people's work I wasn't sure whether to respond or not. Haha.
Since you run 93, most of the basemaps will be fairly knock free as they are mostly tuned for 93. I can provide you a hybrid basemap if you want at some point to at least get you in the ballpark where you know your first drive everything is super safe. But if you want to go at it alone so to speak, just let me know how I can help with it. If not, probably start with the MAF tuned file from Hondata to get you in the ballpark.
Do you have plans for mods anytime soon? If you don't, I would research tuning each cam angle one by one, then blending the tables. Tuning each cam angle is always a good idea to make sure they are all tuned properly. With e-tuning, you can't really build a proper cam angle map or find the optimal vtec rpm engagement point without tuning each cam angle. Yes you can make an educated guess, and yes you can provide everyone with a dyno tuned cam angle map, but that doesn't mean every car will like those settings. When you tune each cam angle, you have all the data you need, and if the VTC system were to fail leaving you on the 0* cam angle, it's nice to know that you tuned the 0* cam angle so the car will run properly and at least get you home.
But yeah, in stock form, research MAF scaling and MAP fuel tables for WOT. There are a lot more things to learn, but those basics would allow you to learn on the job and not be left with terrible lean or super rich conditions. Also you want to make sure the o2 sensor is working properly, when you make your first WOT pull for fuel tuning, you want to look at the AFR line to make sure it's not insanely flat. If the sensor isn't working properly, you won't necessarily get a check engine light, so you want to make sure a working sensor is present so you're not adding fuel and adding fuel with no impact on the tune.
The main thing is don't psych yourself out. Take it step by step and you will begin to see the full picture. Hondata has made things pretty simple for these cars which is nice. Just sometimes it's easy to get overwhelmed with the WTH am I looking at mentality.
Since you run 93, most of the basemaps will be fairly knock free as they are mostly tuned for 93. I can provide you a hybrid basemap if you want at some point to at least get you in the ballpark where you know your first drive everything is super safe. But if you want to go at it alone so to speak, just let me know how I can help with it. If not, probably start with the MAF tuned file from Hondata to get you in the ballpark.
Do you have plans for mods anytime soon? If you don't, I would research tuning each cam angle one by one, then blending the tables. Tuning each cam angle is always a good idea to make sure they are all tuned properly. With e-tuning, you can't really build a proper cam angle map or find the optimal vtec rpm engagement point without tuning each cam angle. Yes you can make an educated guess, and yes you can provide everyone with a dyno tuned cam angle map, but that doesn't mean every car will like those settings. When you tune each cam angle, you have all the data you need, and if the VTC system were to fail leaving you on the 0* cam angle, it's nice to know that you tuned the 0* cam angle so the car will run properly and at least get you home.
But yeah, in stock form, research MAF scaling and MAP fuel tables for WOT. There are a lot more things to learn, but those basics would allow you to learn on the job and not be left with terrible lean or super rich conditions. Also you want to make sure the o2 sensor is working properly, when you make your first WOT pull for fuel tuning, you want to look at the AFR line to make sure it's not insanely flat. If the sensor isn't working properly, you won't necessarily get a check engine light, so you want to make sure a working sensor is present so you're not adding fuel and adding fuel with no impact on the tune.
The main thing is don't psych yourself out. Take it step by step and you will begin to see the full picture. Hondata has made things pretty simple for these cars which is nice. Just sometimes it's easy to get overwhelmed with the WTH am I looking at mentality.
Re: 2009 FA5
I won't trust anyone's work until I start understanding the differences between the calibrations. Which is exactly what I was doing with the thread I found where you had responded to an individual with an 08 civic, I had downloaded the one you made for him. I think the route I am going to want to go is the hybrid calibrations. I have a few mods, and to me it just made sense that it would be awhile before I do anything so I can understand the basics, and make my foundation of knowledge strong. I think the hybrid is the route for me, I just am trying to get to apoint where I'm able to take my laptop out to the car, take a look at the numbers and understand what I am reading, and how to manipulate my tune. The mods I have sitting in front of me, and a few out in the garage, are;
Pro Intake Manifold - K20Z3 Style - Black 307-05-0325
Pro 70mm Throttle Body - K Series - Black 309-05-0085
Cylinder Head Port Covers - K Series 666-05-0100
Lug Nut Set - 20-pc Black (M12 x 1.50) 520-99-0855
Mega Power R Exhaust - '07-'11 Civic Si 4dr. 413-05-5030
Cold Air Intake - '06-'11 Civic Si 343-05-0100
02 Sensor Extension - '06-'15 Civic Si
Boomba Honda Civic SI 2006-2011 Motor Mounts
I won't be able to go at it alone for awhile, but having multiple variations of tunes, and seeing the differences for what they are I believe is going to help me. Today, once the sun comes up and warms up a little, I plan to go out and try to get a base calibration (I think thats the correct way of saying this lol) and use that against the 1 I downloaded yesterday, and anything else that I may get from you.
Thanks EFICU!
Pro Intake Manifold - K20Z3 Style - Black 307-05-0325
Pro 70mm Throttle Body - K Series - Black 309-05-0085
Cylinder Head Port Covers - K Series 666-05-0100
Lug Nut Set - 20-pc Black (M12 x 1.50) 520-99-0855
Mega Power R Exhaust - '07-'11 Civic Si 4dr. 413-05-5030
Cold Air Intake - '06-'11 Civic Si 343-05-0100
02 Sensor Extension - '06-'15 Civic Si
Boomba Honda Civic SI 2006-2011 Motor Mounts
I won't be able to go at it alone for awhile, but having multiple variations of tunes, and seeing the differences for what they are I believe is going to help me. Today, once the sun comes up and warms up a little, I plan to go out and try to get a base calibration (I think thats the correct way of saying this lol) and use that against the 1 I downloaded yesterday, and anything else that I may get from you.
Thanks EFICU!
Re: 2009 FA5
Sounds good. Be sure if you go looking for my stuff on here, try to find newer stuff as I am always trying to evolve things and using new techniques on stuff. It's a constant evolution, though my most current stuff might be the plateau for me as I have sort of cleaned up all the things I've wanted to for some time now. Or just let me know if you want a current basemap for something.
What you might do is datalog some stuff, then make a post about the things you are planning to adjust so we can give you some feedback. There might be some info we can give you on why or why not something might be a good idea, but still give you the option to make your own choice of course.
A couple of quick points about your part list, the throttle body you selected, p/n 309-05-0085, will not work for your 8th gen. That is a cable throttle body that is used with older generations of Hondas. The ECU can't control that, nor would you be able to add a throttle cable to reach your pedal very easy either. From my experience, the K-Tuned 72mm has been the most trouble free upgrade for guys which you can find here https://k-tuned.3dcartstores.com/72mm-D ... p_878.html . Look up idle relearn and idle issues with aftermarket TB's, and some OEM too. Also look up Hondata's information on how the stock ECU can't control a lot of these throttle bodies properly as well. But for me, the K-Tuned TB has been trouble free for the five or so I've worked with.
For the "Cylinder Head Port Covers - K Series 666-05-0100", those are used for storing engines only. They cover the open ports of the cylinder head during storage of an engine, both intake and exhaust, so they can't be used on a functioning engine.
The "Cold Air Intake - '06-'11 Civic Si 343-05-0100" has to be tuned using a speed density (MAP based) calibration only, it cannot be tuned using a MAF calibration or a hybrid calibration. So keep that in mind once you install it. The 3.5' diameter of the tube won't provide the proper airflow around the MAF sensor, therefore it can't provide a proper reading to the ECU. So a speed density tune must be uploaded before the initial start or you will most likely get error codes and it will run poorly. All this is similar to the Hybrid Racing intake, almost all intakes should be speed density tuned, but the 3.5" variants all must be and are recommended so by their manufacturers.
The "02 Sensor Extension - '06-'15 Civic Si", you only need this with having their race header. You don't need it with the stock exhaust manifold, but you can certainly run it if you want to. You will be left with a lot of excess wire, so you will need to harness that out of the way.
Sounds good, just keep us in the loop when you get started and how we can help, if at all.
What you might do is datalog some stuff, then make a post about the things you are planning to adjust so we can give you some feedback. There might be some info we can give you on why or why not something might be a good idea, but still give you the option to make your own choice of course.
A couple of quick points about your part list, the throttle body you selected, p/n 309-05-0085, will not work for your 8th gen. That is a cable throttle body that is used with older generations of Hondas. The ECU can't control that, nor would you be able to add a throttle cable to reach your pedal very easy either. From my experience, the K-Tuned 72mm has been the most trouble free upgrade for guys which you can find here https://k-tuned.3dcartstores.com/72mm-D ... p_878.html . Look up idle relearn and idle issues with aftermarket TB's, and some OEM too. Also look up Hondata's information on how the stock ECU can't control a lot of these throttle bodies properly as well. But for me, the K-Tuned TB has been trouble free for the five or so I've worked with.
For the "Cylinder Head Port Covers - K Series 666-05-0100", those are used for storing engines only. They cover the open ports of the cylinder head during storage of an engine, both intake and exhaust, so they can't be used on a functioning engine.
The "Cold Air Intake - '06-'11 Civic Si 343-05-0100" has to be tuned using a speed density (MAP based) calibration only, it cannot be tuned using a MAF calibration or a hybrid calibration. So keep that in mind once you install it. The 3.5' diameter of the tube won't provide the proper airflow around the MAF sensor, therefore it can't provide a proper reading to the ECU. So a speed density tune must be uploaded before the initial start or you will most likely get error codes and it will run poorly. All this is similar to the Hybrid Racing intake, almost all intakes should be speed density tuned, but the 3.5" variants all must be and are recommended so by their manufacturers.
The "02 Sensor Extension - '06-'15 Civic Si", you only need this with having their race header. You don't need it with the stock exhaust manifold, but you can certainly run it if you want to. You will be left with a lot of excess wire, so you will need to harness that out of the way.
Sounds good, just keep us in the loop when you get started and how we can help, if at all.
Re: 2009 FA5
Hey EFICU, here is what I tried to catch. I tuned my ECU with the completely stock, tuned file that came with the flashpro. This was a cold start, and on to a little drive. I tested out a few different shifting techniques, and hit VTEC a few times to see what the crossover looked like. I don't know to read this, could you give me a few pointers.
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Re: 2009 FA5
I will say, I was oversea's when I purchased the majority of my upgrades, and went off of a list that was from someone, at the time I was just lookingg for a parts list and had the money to blow on a list that I thought would be good to go. I will obviously not use the TB or the port covers haha thank you for the info, I'll use this to move forward.
Re: 2009 FA5
Yeah that one looks just fine, you could run that without any issues for sure which is nice. The joys of 93 octane, you guys with 93 are so lucky. Haha.
The first thing I would do is go into the calibration, click on "calibration" at the top, then go to "throttle". Unchecking the box for first gear throttle dampening will stop the throttle body from slowing down in first gear to avoid wheel spin. If you try to get after it in first gear with that on, it slows the opening of the throttle body to keep the tires from spinning. Then I would uncheck the overrun rev hang box underneath that too. That keeps the throttle from hanging during shifts which is technically there to make for smoother shifts. Apparently Honda felt people that drive their cars don't know how to drive a manual trans, so they did a lot of things to make it shifter smoother in case. But IMO, and many others, both of these functions turned off make for a better driving experience.
You will also notice that you can't powershift into second gear. That is because of the clutch master cylinder and some people think the slave. You should look into the EM1 clutch master cylinder and slave kit from K-Tuned. And also research that issue, it's interesting. https://www.kseriesparts.com/KTD-CLK-KMS.html
Another thing I would recommend, again under the "calibration" tab, go to "VTC", and uncheck the box for "Zero vtc on decel" and check the box for "Use VTC tables upon decel". In stock form, the cam advance slams shut every time you let off the gas. So the cam is rotating anywehere from 0-45*, over and over as you're driving. On your WOT pulls, the cam advance is at 45* and then slams shut to 0* almost immediately. This constant slamming shut to 0, then back to a high value, then back to 0, over and over again can cause a lot of stress on the timing chain and tensioner. Not to mention it causes the fuel tables to be all over the place, again causing AFR control issues. But the main issue is the timing components. When you check the box for "use VTC tables on decel", it makes the cam angle follow the cam angle mapping which when done right makes the cam angle stay more static, especially on shifts. For long term, and drivability even, having it follow the tables will take a lot of stress off timing components.
For being stock, IMO there is too much cam angle in this file. So you might be losing some midrange performance because it's asking for too much cam angle but you don't have the mods to support it. Too much cam angle is just as bad as too little, you have to find the balance. Which is why when I mentioned tuning each cam angle one by one, that gives you the data to make those decisions with data from your car.
Other than that it's not bad at all. Your MAF scale looks great, the part throttle trims are great. The WOT fuel is a little rich, but nothing to panic about while you're learning. For now, I would first try unchecking the first gear dampening and overrun throttle hang to see if you like how it drives. Be sure to make one change at a time, that way you can understand what the car is doing and if you like that change or not. Sometimes guys change five thing at once, then hate the way it drives, but they can't determine which change was the problem. There are some other things I would change, but I don't want to overwhelm you.
The first thing I would do is go into the calibration, click on "calibration" at the top, then go to "throttle". Unchecking the box for first gear throttle dampening will stop the throttle body from slowing down in first gear to avoid wheel spin. If you try to get after it in first gear with that on, it slows the opening of the throttle body to keep the tires from spinning. Then I would uncheck the overrun rev hang box underneath that too. That keeps the throttle from hanging during shifts which is technically there to make for smoother shifts. Apparently Honda felt people that drive their cars don't know how to drive a manual trans, so they did a lot of things to make it shifter smoother in case. But IMO, and many others, both of these functions turned off make for a better driving experience.
You will also notice that you can't powershift into second gear. That is because of the clutch master cylinder and some people think the slave. You should look into the EM1 clutch master cylinder and slave kit from K-Tuned. And also research that issue, it's interesting. https://www.kseriesparts.com/KTD-CLK-KMS.html
Another thing I would recommend, again under the "calibration" tab, go to "VTC", and uncheck the box for "Zero vtc on decel" and check the box for "Use VTC tables upon decel". In stock form, the cam advance slams shut every time you let off the gas. So the cam is rotating anywehere from 0-45*, over and over as you're driving. On your WOT pulls, the cam advance is at 45* and then slams shut to 0* almost immediately. This constant slamming shut to 0, then back to a high value, then back to 0, over and over again can cause a lot of stress on the timing chain and tensioner. Not to mention it causes the fuel tables to be all over the place, again causing AFR control issues. But the main issue is the timing components. When you check the box for "use VTC tables on decel", it makes the cam angle follow the cam angle mapping which when done right makes the cam angle stay more static, especially on shifts. For long term, and drivability even, having it follow the tables will take a lot of stress off timing components.
For being stock, IMO there is too much cam angle in this file. So you might be losing some midrange performance because it's asking for too much cam angle but you don't have the mods to support it. Too much cam angle is just as bad as too little, you have to find the balance. Which is why when I mentioned tuning each cam angle one by one, that gives you the data to make those decisions with data from your car.
Other than that it's not bad at all. Your MAF scale looks great, the part throttle trims are great. The WOT fuel is a little rich, but nothing to panic about while you're learning. For now, I would first try unchecking the first gear dampening and overrun throttle hang to see if you like how it drives. Be sure to make one change at a time, that way you can understand what the car is doing and if you like that change or not. Sometimes guys change five thing at once, then hate the way it drives, but they can't determine which change was the problem. There are some other things I would change, but I don't want to overwhelm you.
Re: 2009 FA5
Alright, that is a lot, which is exactly what I wanted. I just came back from testing this on the highway, and everything runs pretty clean, it's definitely different than yesterday, but in a good way. I did notice something. On my way back home, my RPMs shot to 4500 if I did not have my cruise button on. There was no change in the engine or any mechanical issues at all, it did scare me though haha I had to stop on the side turn the music off and the heat, and listen. Is this a common side-effect?
I'm gonna take your last response, tear it apart and see if I can record data logs for every change you're advising. This was a great help!
I'm gonna take your last response, tear it apart and see if I can record data logs for every change you're advising. This was a great help!
Re: 2009 FA5
Ok, so, after completing each item you suggested I have found disabling the throttle dampening, and rev hang, I really enjoyed the ability to spin tires on 1st gear. lol. I would be lying if I said I didn't enjoy that. I disabled the Zero VTC on decel, and checked the box for the VTC tables. I have the final log for all 4 options I changed. What do you think?
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Re: 2009 FA5
So, dummy moment, I had to play the datalog to see what was going on. In my head, I thought I would have been able to look at static numbers, instead of actually watching what my car was doing during these test drives. This is really cool, and I've just been going through and looking at the different options.
Re: 2009 FA5
Not sure what the issue is you were referring to in your previous post about the 4500 rpms.
Overall this one looks pretty good. You might want to go in and look at the knock now. If you look at your knock control value, by the end of the datalog it's at 99. When this value rises, it pulls timing proactively because it's calculating that knock may occur based on noise the knock sensor is hearing. So that timing being pulled while driving, means you might be missing out on a little bit of part throttle power. Once you get it knock free, the knock control value should stay around 56. So when you find knock happening, pull 2* of timing out of that group of cells and then reinspect with a drive.
Another thing to look into, the throttle table map. From the factory, the pedal to TB relationship is very lazy. Meaning you can be pushing the pedal 20%, but the TB is only opening 10%. So you're brain thinks it's pushing the pedal quite a bit, but the TB is only opening a little bit. Sort of like older cars with cable TB's, when you push the pedal a certain percent you're technically opening the throttle body that same percent. So it's good to put a throttle pedal map in there that makes it more direct. If you want to post the calibration you're running, I can put my base pedal map in it for you to try. This was one of the biggest changes I noticed when I had my 8th gen was a better pedal map made it feel a lot more direct.
Overall this one looks pretty good. You might want to go in and look at the knock now. If you look at your knock control value, by the end of the datalog it's at 99. When this value rises, it pulls timing proactively because it's calculating that knock may occur based on noise the knock sensor is hearing. So that timing being pulled while driving, means you might be missing out on a little bit of part throttle power. Once you get it knock free, the knock control value should stay around 56. So when you find knock happening, pull 2* of timing out of that group of cells and then reinspect with a drive.
Another thing to look into, the throttle table map. From the factory, the pedal to TB relationship is very lazy. Meaning you can be pushing the pedal 20%, but the TB is only opening 10%. So you're brain thinks it's pushing the pedal quite a bit, but the TB is only opening a little bit. Sort of like older cars with cable TB's, when you push the pedal a certain percent you're technically opening the throttle body that same percent. So it's good to put a throttle pedal map in there that makes it more direct. If you want to post the calibration you're running, I can put my base pedal map in it for you to try. This was one of the biggest changes I noticed when I had my 8th gen was a better pedal map made it feel a lot more direct.
Re: 2009 FA5
As for the issue I attempted to describe earlier, it has not happened again. While on the highway, I hit the brakes a little hard so I could get in the left hand lane due to a cop, and a moron pacing me on my left flank, right in the blind spot. So, I braked a little hard, and once I got back over to the right lane, I noticed my needle for my RPMs was bouncing all over, then stayed smack in the middle. I freaked out a little, being this is the first time I have ever had the ECU messed with, I freaked out lol. once I had pulled over and listened, I notice there wasn't any revving, so the RPMs gauge was the only thing acting odd. When I clicked the cruise control on/off button, turning it on, the RPMs dropped to normal levels, accurately showing me my RPMs. Like I said, it hasn't happened since, but that is an issue I will be looking into.
For the knock tables, I've been watching Evans Performance Academy, and I do not feel comfortable manipulating those numbers just yet, but I will shortly after some studies. I will get after the throttle body once I finish studying the knock tables.
Thank you EFICU!
For the knock tables, I've been watching Evans Performance Academy, and I do not feel comfortable manipulating those numbers just yet, but I will shortly after some studies. I will get after the throttle body once I finish studying the knock tables.
Thank you EFICU!
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sam.witte7@gmail.com
- Posts: 48
- Joined: Fri Mar 26, 2021 6:55 pm
Re: 2009 FA5
If your cruise control is off and you press the decel button your tachometer turns into an air fuel ratio meter. Turns your cruise back off and press decel to shut it off.David89 wrote: Sun Feb 13, 2022 12:57 pm As for the issue I attempted to describe earlier, it has not happened again. While on the highway, I hit the brakes a little hard so I could get in the left hand lane due to a cop, and a moron pacing me on my left flank, right in the blind spot. So, I braked a little hard, and once I got back over to the right lane, I noticed my needle for my RPMs was bouncing all over, then stayed smack in the middle. I freaked out a little, being this is the first time I have ever had the ECU messed with, I freaked out lol. once I had pulled over and listened, I notice there wasn't any revving, so the RPMs gauge was the only thing acting odd. When I clicked the cruise control on/off button, turning it on, the RPMs dropped to normal levels, accurately showing me my RPMs. Like I said, it hasn't happened since, but that is an issue I will be looking into.
For the knock tables, I've been watching Evans Performance Academy, and I do not feel comfortable manipulating those numbers just yet, but I will shortly after some studies. I will get after the throttle body once I finish studying the knock tables.
Thank you EFICU!